Good trip and fictional musings

[veronica_rich]

Three weeks ago, my friend Susan got married, to a college professor she's known for more than a year. Like me, Susan is in her almost-mid-30s and I didn't think she'd ever get married, even though she did date and had lived with a guy before this one. At any rate, she was never searching for a husband, so I think that's the best way to go. (Unlike me - I do not live well with other humans, and I know this from experience. Sex would not abate that.)

Last night I went to her delayed wedding reception, and met a lot of new people (and some old ones, from the wedding and once or twice before, mostly his friends who'd adopted her into their circle). Susan was telling me how I ought to move closer to them (they live 100 miles from me, which is hard to visit because of gas prices) - of course I can't because of decreased job possibilities. But anyway, it was much fun and it's the first time in a long time that I've drank a LOT, didn't get drunk, and woke up this morning without a headache. Maybe I'm aging in reverse! LOL


Okay, fictional musings. In order to proceed to this next part, you have to have an interest in POTC2, you have to not be scared off by some spoilers (believe it or not, I am trying to avoid really major ones, but I've been sucked into looking at some of the still photos and seeing the two trailers now out), and you have to watch the current Japanese trailer first, especially near the end. It can be found at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZhzUAs5W7I&eurl if you haven't seen it.


Near the end is a very brief cut-in scene of what looks like Jack and Elizabeth very close, facing, his hands up, almost like they're about to kiss or something. That's what I'm referring to herein.

I certainly hope this is either one of them leaning in to bluff and make a point, or a quick kiss that will result in the same reaction Marty McFly and Lorraine Baines had to each other in the 1950s part of "Back to the Future" when Lorraine tried to kiss him and felt icky for it.

HOWEVER ... I do not have the faith in the writers that others in this fandom seem to. My opinion is the first movie was saved much on the backs of Johnny and Gore fixing dialogue and plot points (I don't mean the other actors weren't good; what I mean is the writers did a less than stellar job and were saved from themselves. Listen to the writer commentary on the DVD sometime and how often they talk about being asked to change the script here and there, and THEIR ideas of what made the movie so successful). I have a worry - in the fictional sense, of course; I realize this isn't war in Iran or "real world" stuff - that these two are going to try to set up the old, tired, lame-ass "conflict between two men for the love of a woman" angle, using Will, Jack, and Elizabeth.

I know some on my f-list will disagree with my following statement just like some will disagree about my previous statement about Ted and Terry, but I'll say it anyway: Jack and Elizabeth are NOT a feasible pairing. They are too alike. They would work well together to achieve an end, and they could have a fabulous mentor-student partnership. But sexually? Just - NO. There IS tension in that threesome, but it's not between Jack and Will for the attentions of Elizabeth ...

Comments

[pseudoblu.livejournal.com]

I've been trying to avoid spoilers but I too have been looking at every picture and trailer that comes out. I accidentally came across a spoilery thing that I wasn't sure was true but it had to do with that tease of a kiss. I'll try to share it if you don't mind being spoiled that much.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

If you'll restrict it to just that, sure, go ahead and post it here. I'd be curious ...

[philosophercat.livejournal.com]

That was Elizabeth?! ...Hmnnn...

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I believe so. Photos I've seen her feature her in pirate garb and a tricorn hat.

[gloromeien.livejournal.com]

Hey-there, longtime fan of your fics tuning in,

I don't necessarily disagree with your statements about the writers not doing it all on their own and certain other parties being involved in improving the script. I certainly think most successful movies and most certainly this one are a collaboration between all involved. I'm sure Ted, Terry, Gore, Johnny, and probably even Geoffrey Rush had as much to do with the finished film as any one of their individual contributions to dialogue. They each added their own unique elements and it all came together as a whole.

That quibble aside, I have read Orlando say only about a thousand times in recent press that Will is going to go quite 'dark' for the third film. If that's so, the only dramatically meaningful way to do that is if he's estranged from Elizabeth and she comes to question his character (which, as in all tales of this sort, in the end will prove completely fruitless because he was just pretending all along, blah, blah).

Anyway, point being that if Elizabeth is canoodling with Jack, it lowers the dramatic stakes of this considerably. Of course, that itself could be the impetus for Will decamping to the dark side (depending on what that in itself actually means plot-wise), but that seems more like a fanfic plot than it does the actualy, humor-driven and action-oriented films.

Basically, I think such a scene has more value comedically than it does in genuine intent (and by the gods do I hope I'm right on this one). Also, there was that moment in POTC1 where they were flirting on the deserted island and Elizabeth had zero interest in pursuing that. Not to menion the last line Jack speaks to her in the original film, which indicates that Jack thinks Liz is interested in him, as all women are, but that this is another sun-baked delusion of his. And that, really, is a much funnier notion, and way to play that scene, than if it's true and they really are flirting. Keira does do craftly indignation only too well (even got her an Oscar nod).

Sorry for the veritable thesis, but I do get excited about these things! Take care!

-G. ;D

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I read Orli's interviews too, and to me, it's possible that he teams with Jack for whatever reason and goes pirate for some reason (or that he goes pirate and opposes Jack). But I would hate for it to be over a dame. Cripes, how predictable!

And to think, I was more worried a year ago that it would turn out Jack is Will's blood relative ...

[pir8fancier.livejournal.com]

I think their egos are both too large to suffer each other.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I believe you're correct.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Addition: What I should've said was, I believe you're correct, but I'm not sure the Disney collective has enough sense to realize that, and will somehow try to cram one of their personalities down (or both) to fit with one another.

[vejiicakes.livejournal.com]

I went ahead and read the (reputable or not) spoilers via the ML .. up to a point because I wanted at least some of the movie to be a surprise, if any of the spoilers turned out to be true. And upon reading them, grew to be ... concerned, in the manner which you seem to be concerned, and on the same matter.

I'd become quite fond of Elizabeth, much to my surprise. But I think this Will/Jack/Liz threesome (and not a threesome in that sense, which I might actually enjoy) would just push her over into Suedom. I really think it would. She had two men vying for her attention in POTCI--she damn well doesn't need three.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

To me, Jack is the quintessential single guy. He does NOT need a love interest (well ... at least not a woman, heh). He needs to travel the seas making port and deflowering squealing, happy women as often as possible.

[queenoftheeggs.livejournal.com]

Movie preview people like to trick us...I bet this is one of those times...Elizabeth is probably an inch away from slapping him. Besides, I can never picture Jack settling down with any female...(or in general...anyone...he's too much of a backstabber in my mind)

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

He would definitely need someone he really cared about and who could handle themselves - wouldn't need his constant protection - in order to think about being monogamous, yeah. Someone who'd live his lifestyle and let him be the boss, without being a doormat about it.

Hmmm, I have just the man ...

[captsparrow4evr.livejournal.com]

I must agree with queenoftheeggs that the teasers are always used to trick us into wanting to see the movie to see if something they hint at is true or not. Heck, as I like to point out, one of the first trailers for DMC that I saw showed prominently Will kissing someone in a tricorn. The first time I saw it it was such a quick glimpse that my heart started beating fast and I actually squeed--It looked like Will was kissing JACK!! Then I saw the trailer again and some stills and saw Elizabeth dressed as a boy and, well, then I knew. But if I had just seen that first trailer and nothing more, you better believe I'd be at the theatre at that first showing to see if the Disney execs had fulfilled my fantasies.:)

I agree with you, though, that of all the pairings I've seen come from the movie, Jack/Elizabeth is my least favorite (I'd rather read Moog, frankly) because it's just so not happening. I do hope that Keira Knightley has more chemistry with the male leads in this one than she did with them in the first. As Jack put it so succinctly, "One can only hope."

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Since the first movie, Orlando and Keira have both had "grown up" acting experiences (Balian, much?) that I think have made them more solid actors. Plus, it looks like Elizabeth gets to be a bit more independent in 2 than in the first one, and Will is less timid around her, so maybe there'll be some more chemistry flowing freely all around ...

[captsparrow4evr.livejournal.com]

a) Liz is an intelligent woman, so why would she have to distract Jack with her sexuality when she can quite easily match him in wits. I really loved her character in the first movie, but I fear that I may strongly dislike her in this one.

I HATED Liz in the first movie. So if they change her character, maybe I'll like her more in this movie.

e) I wanted this movie to be full of slashy context, not a dramatic love triangle with Jack and Will fighting for Elizabeth's heart.

*sigh* Unfortunately, this is Disney. And if, as I suspect, the writers etc. have been checking out the fan-fic, they may be trying to get away from the slashiness. Now that doesn't mean the writers _have_ been dropping by to read a fan-fic or two and that we slash-girls won't be very pleased with the results (after all, the scene I mentioned in the first trailer) but I don't know that I trust a Mouse with only three fingers!:)

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

*sigh*

Okay, you might as well warn me. Are there other scenes where I'm going to be wincing as I watch J/E approach getting it on? (Try to keep out other things if you at all can.)

[nobleplatypus]

I'm going to have to watch the writers' commentary sometime in order to fully appreciate what sort of a job they did, but my reaction just from reading the comments... oy.

I was apprehensive as soon as I heard that they were making a sequel because I thought (still do, really), that the first movie was ten times more successful than it really ought to have been (not because I thought it was a bad movie that got too much attention, but because we're talking about a movie based on a theme park ride, so everyone was expecting something about on par with "The Country Bears"), and I thought they were really pushing their luck with not only one, but two sequels. I just don't see how the heck the sequels could possibly live up to the original, which surprised the world by being awesome. It's like being the younger sibling of a child prodigy--you're going to have to really fucking shine if you don't want to pale in comparison.

And from the comments (and other spoilers I hunted down out of morbid curiosity), I now have little reason to believe that this is going to be anywhere near as good as the first. -_- Jack "wants" Elizabeth, now? Frankly, I can't imagine him loving any woman more than he loves his boat, his gold, and himself. :P And I wouldn't have him any other way. I have a feeling this is going to be one of many contrived conflicts injected into the story in order to drag things out for three movies when only one sequel--if any--is necessary.

[metalkatt.livejournal.com]

The writers' commentary sucks like a sucky, sucking vacuum of suckinesss that could suck up a black hole. *stabinates the Terror Twins*

[kaellana.livejournal.com]

Followed the link to here from arrrrr. :D

I've been reading all the spoilers since day one - I don't know how much you want to know, but I'll just say that in both the sequels all the characters get a lot darker (and a lot more developed); Jack, Will, Elizabeth and Norrington.

*minor spoilers*

I see ref_1985 already gave you the spoiler from the script extract. In that instance, the J/E kiss is no different to Elizabeth plying Jack with rum to get off the island, or promising marriage to Norrington in order to pursue Will. She is being, as always, piratical, and using whatever tools she has to get what she wants.

There's some more stuff I could hint at for you with regards to Jack's feelings for Elizabeth, but in case you don't want to be spoiled further I won't say anything more at the moment. :)

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

If you're just going to hint at me, go right ahead and post it *G*.

(If you'll scout around the comments here, I had written at one point my suspicion about Jack being Elizabeth's daddy. I'd probably laugh so loud the theater security would have to be called, if that happened.)

[venusinchains.livejournal.com]

I've been doing my best to avoid written spoilers, but I did slip up and read the bit involving the scene that's upsetting you. Your first poster here gave you most of the details of that spoiler, and someone else gave a good description of how I feel about the Jack/Elizabeth/Will dynamic so far (the whole Peas In A Pod bit).

All I can think to add is that I'm still feeling excited about this movie. I've always felt that, for various reasons, all three leads can easily be seen as grey characters (Jack and Elizabeth for their opportunism and all that that entails, and Will for his anger, which, with the right incentive, could easily lead him into a darker place). I'm especially interested to see how Norrington fits in with this "threesome," as it sounds like he's going to have a much larger role. I've always been a J/W fan myself, but I adore all the other characters and would love to see more involvement from any of them. I must go watch that trailer again. :-)

(I really need a new PotC icon. Has anyone capped that trailer yet?)

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I have no problem with experimenting with the characters - WITHIN CHARACTER. My big thing is I just don't see Jack as falling all over himself with Elizabeth and being stupid for her time and time and time again. He's not that simplistic or easily-led. I would say that whether it were Elizabeth, Anamaria, Will, or anyone else trying to seduce him - he's the seducer, NOT the seduced (and certainly not by the least compatible person for him in the entire cast of characters).

But otherwise, yeah, I'll go at least once and see what's become of all of them. *G*

I don't know if the trailer's been capped - you might check out the LJ of leggyslove because she usually has links to such things if it has been.

[bombazzinedoll.livejournal.com]

i really don't think that kiss is going to go much of anywhere.

you said in your original post that the two of them are far too alike for something like a (semi? quasi?) successful relationship to work -- and i think the key to the whole thing is far too alike.

we discovered in the first film that Lizzie was just about ready to do just about anything to get Will back; i think it's in one of fabu's fics that Anamaria says Elizabeth would have lain with a monkey to save Turner, and whereas i'm rather loath to quote fanfiction when it doesn't mean a thing in the scheme of pure canon, i do think that statement is entirely correct.

or (a more canonically sound example) is the 'peas in a pod' deleted scene, where Jack comments on how they're both willing to do whatever is necessary. that's what i think we have to keep in mind.

of course, this does not mean Jack will take his own observations to heart. man's a diehard opportunist, not to mention an arrogant egomaniac and womaniser; if he seriously thought there was something going on between them, viz. the ever-famous 'it never would have worked between us, darling' line, and if he continues to believe that he seriously has a chance to get off with young Turner's lovely fiancee, then not only will he undoubtedly take a stab at doing so (all swishy and self-confident-like), but he's going to give Liz the perfect opportunity to get what she wants, which i sincerely believe has nothing to do with Piratey Nether Regions and everything to do with walking all over Jack Sparrow.

[bombazzinedoll.livejournal.com]

or, he's going to give Liz exactly what she wants while knowing exactly what she wants. maybe he knows that any sort of romantickal relationship between the two of them would end in mutual strangulation, but figures he might as well get some sugar anyway, the slutbag.

[honorat.livejournal.com]

I have read ALL the spoilers--including the summary of the entire junior novel. So a great many of the speculations here seem fun because they are so far off. I won't spoil it for anyone else. But don't forget there's a whole Bootstrap Bill angle that isn't showing up in the trailer.

One comment by Johnny Depp that people keep forgetting is the aspect of Pepe LePew in the Jack Sparrow character. Johnny talks about how Pepe always felt he was irresistible to the female characters and never ever clued to their real feelings. I think we have to give the man's own interpretation of his character credit. Jack is not going to pass up making passes at any female that crosses his path, including Elizabeth. He did so in the first movie and he is obviously doing so in the second if you've seen the new trailer. Johnny said he loved how Jack really believed he was about to get lucky on that island. If Johnny is happy with that interpretation of his character, I'm not complaining that he keeps it up in PotC2.

As for Jack and Will's relationship in the second movie, the Entertainment Tonight clip made it clear that things get very tense between them, but over something entirely different than Elizabeth. There's an exchange between Norrington and Will who both have Jack at swordspoint that is highly illuminating. Let me know if you want to hear it.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

There's an exchange between Norrington and Will who both have Jack at swordspoint that is highly illuminating. Let me know if you want to hear it.

You could do that, or just post the gist of it herein, if that's easier for you. I trust your summary skills. :-D

Your comment actually came through 3 times, so it looks like you did okay (well, this one is partial, but the other 2 came through intact). I may reply more in full later on, but I think I can cover your other points herein:

You may not have read all the comments all the way through this entire post. It is noted - by me and others - that this is surely not the thrust of the movie. This is the problem a fan runs into, however, when she doesn't want to know the full extent of everything that's happening in the movie (spoilers!) and chooses instead to speculate based on what little she's seen and read bandied about. (And, along with that, reads what OTHER people are saying they've read in spoilers, right or wrong.)

As for fanfic relationships - I also note elsewhere in here that I realize that's not going to happen. I think 99.9 percent of fanfic writers are sane enough to know what they come up with is NOT going to be pulled into canon, especially if it involves a same-sex relationship (even in this day and age it's of limited usage in entertainment, especially by a studio like Disney). Frankly, it's more fun for us fanficcers to hew to the subversive - at least that's why I'm not bothered not to see Jack/Will onscreen.

At any rate, that's not what bothered me about the kiss - what bothered me was the idea that Jack is somehow being written as less intelligent or perceptive than in the first movie. That's part of what I love about the character! I just don't want to see him "dumbed down" in the name of dramatic/sexual tension, you know? And while I understand for her time, sex is one of the few weapons Elizabeth has at her disposal, what I liked about her in the first movie is she didn't play dumb and didn't use her body/looks more than necessary. To even *think* she would try to continually lead Jack around by the dick, and that he would ALLOW it - that's what annoyed me, because it's not in their character, IMO.

[honorat.livejournal.com]

I have read ALL the spoilers, including the entire summary of the junior novelization, so a lot of the speculation here seems highly amusing. I won’t spoil it for anyone else. You must remember that there is a whole Bootstrap Bill arc to the story that is not being represented in the trailers.

As for the relationship between Jack and Elizabeth, I think it is important to remember that one of Johnny Depp’s major influences on the Jack Sparrow character was Pepe LePew who always considered himself irresistible to women and remained oblivious to their real sentiments. So of course Jack would chase after any female that enters his orbit, including Elizabeth. He did so in the first movie. Johnny said he loved the fact that Jack really thought he was going to get lucky on that island. I think we have to give Johnny credit for the character he wants Jack to be. Since someone has already mentioned it, that kiss between Jack and Elizabeth has a really strong Judas element to it.

As for the relationship between Jack and Will, it gets very tense and has nothing to do with a love triangle. There’s a clip from Entertainment Tonight that has a very illuminating conversation between Will and Norrington as they face off against Jack. If you want to hear it, I’ll post it.

This is Disney, people. And professional writers avoid fanfic like the plague for copyright reasons. They’re not going to be influenced by it. As for the way in which drama gets written—ever since the dawn of written drama it has always been collaborative between playwrights and actors. Shakespeare and PotC1 are no exceptions. It is no slam on a writer to be influenced by the director and actors. Ted and Terry were pulled into PotC1 at a later date and the script was being composed during the filming, so of course they talked about having to change and add scenes. I understand that normally writers don’t get this chance to monkey with the script during the filming, which is why so many sequels make no sense. But this time they’ll still get that freedom. And I think everyone will be paying close attention to what their cash cow Johnny Depp wants to do.

Grrr. LJ ate my first comment. *Tries again*

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

It could be it's not a real kiss, just a tease (doesn't negate what bothers me about it, but I'm more sanguine now and figure it'll all work out in the end).

No, NOW I'm imagining what a great kisser Orlando is. **sigh**