Boys and their boots (and hats) ...

[veronica_rich]

My penchant for wanting to discuss symbolism does sometimes overextend my grasp; I'll admit that upfront. But there's something I wanted to bring up based on a DMC discussion I saw in a subset of someone else's REALLY GOOD LJ discussion (it's in the one about the dice, for anyone who's heard of/read that one).



I'll try to be brief. There's a discussion in the comments section of the dice post - http://community.livejournal.com/triskaideka____/16644.html?thread=145156#t145156 - wherein we discuss the symbolistic importance of hats in the POTC movies. It's pretty much a given that Jack's hat is his power source. *G*

But metalkatt and I were discussing this earlier, and I told her it occurred to me that hats didn't work for all the characters (I'm just dealing with the major ones here, because at 3 am, any more than that would induce a migraine. Please feel free to add your own 2 cents in the comments, though, about anyone you like). Let's look at Will and James, specifically.

Will really advances as a character in DMC. He learns how to cheat to get what he needs (using the dice game as disguise for his real motive, hardly "honorable" in his old world), how to square more with adversity, how to deal with Jack and accept the consequences for not getting *enough* information from Jack (witness how when Elizabeth finds out Jack lied to her, she gets pissed off, but Will simply calls him on it and lets it drop as if he expects no less). But at the beginning of the movie, when he's actually wearing a hat - the only time he is - he is arrested and shackled and led to Beckett.

This scene annoys me. Will seems so ... impotent here. He doesn't struggle physically as much as he should. Elizabeth's demand for the charges is more forceful and badass, while Will just sort of stands there - I don't mean because he's the man he should be louder or angrier, I mean WILL HAS A TEMPER and we've seen it. Frankly, if this were the first time I were ever seeing Will Turner in action, I would be underwhelmed with both character and actor.

I've always contended that Bloom's not a wooden actor, he just tends to underplay rather than overdramatize, and a lot of viewers don't appreciate or see need for the difference. And it occured to me that may be the case here, too (of course, direction helps, but an actor's gotta be able to pull it off and if my meta is right, he does).

Notice that Will doesn't act like this in the rest of the movie. Once he leaves the jail, he takes charge, tracking Jack down himself, taking risks, going into strange places, getting the crew out of trouble and ultimately, off the Pelegostos island. His attitude isn't the same, either - he's confident once he manages to get Jack on the Pearl and make demands. He's not even as impotent on board the Flying Dutchman as he was in his wedding coat and hat, not even when he's being physically whipped. And, while deferential to Tia Dalma's mystical powers, he's not hesitant in the way that Gibbs and the other pirates are.

In other words, there is Will Turner in this movie, and there is William Turner - and I don't mean son and father. ;-)

Anyway, if a hat isn't Will's power here, what is? metalkatt says it's the boots. She also pointed out James has the boots, too, and they seem to be better for him than his hat, as well. (Come to think of it, EVERYONE in this movie has pirate boots.) Throughout the first movie, James had his hat and wig, and he never seemed really in charge as he should've. When he rescues Will, it's at Elizabeth's wheedling; he doesn't get to defeat the undead pirates until they're mortal, thanks to Jack and Will; he doesn't even get to hang his captive, because of Will's, Elizabeth's, and Swann's interference. In DMC, he's buffeted about when we first see him, staggering here and there or being led about. But once he's free of his wig, he's free to comment on absolutely anything. He fights for himself, he seizes the chance to steal the two Power Objects in the movie (heart and letter of marque), AND he manages to trick his way away from Jones's crew with none the wiser. (metalkatt wants to know why the hell he'd want to go back to his hatted, bewigged life, if he does so much better without them, and I'm inclined to wonder, as well.)

Thoughts?

Comments

[vejiicakes.livejournal.com]

This is going to be all me talking out of my ass, but it was a thought, anyway: It's the world that links them to Elizabeth! Or the clothing hearkening back to the world linking them to Elizabeth:

- Will's entire wedding ensemble, a more obvious shackle linking him to Elizabeth.
- Norrington's powdered wig and social respectibility (if one wants to assume the hat is the sum of all that), that which would have idealy allowed him to be with Elizabeth.

Again, ass talking, but I can't help but be slightly snide--I finally got to go back and see the movie again, and found her character bothered me more than upon initial viewing (probably because I was just so damn delighted that she was taking on a more active role). I also noticed that when Jack returns to the Pearl to shoot the 'splodey barrels, Elizabeth does this weird thing where she reclines on the stairs and clasps herself to his leg in a manner which recalled dozens of tacky submissive romance novel covers to mind, in a moment of delirious, amused horror....

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I also noticed that when Jack returns to the Pearl to shoot the 'splodey barrels, Elizabeth does this weird thing where she reclines on the stairs and clasps herself to his leg in a manner which recalled dozens of tacky submissive romance novel covers to mind, in a moment of delirious, amused horror....

You *just* noticed that? We call that her Princess Leia moment (remember the vintage SW poster where she's kneeling, leaning against Luke's leg as he holds the saber aloft?). I can't figure out if it's to steady Jack in case the Kraken reaches up for him - as it did for her ankles - or if it really is some bodice-ripping thing. I wouldn't be surprised at the second, simply because we've already had Jack ripping her bodice anyway.

probably because I was just so damn delighted that she was taking on a more active role

Now, now, you're going to bring the Wrath of the Feminazis down on us. Seriously, I didn't have a problem with her wanting to participate in the voyage and the ass-kicking. I didn't even have a problem in the first movie with the whole triangle thing with her and Norrie and Will, because it was believable. But, OMG, THIS MOVIE NEEDS OTHER WOMEN so that the other males can Get Some and quit trying to dive into HER knickers. I'm *sure* the writers intend for her to be Empowered Chick, but the real net effect is that Elizabeth is no more out of a traditional female role in THESE movies than in any other.

Dammit, I LIKED the old relationship between her and Jack, of mutual guarded respect. The more I've seen their smoochy-smoochiness, the more I want to shake the writers and ask "What the FUCK were you thinking?" Can't a woman have a businesslike relationship with an older man that stays businesslike? Or does the man have to be evil and ugly and beyond wanting to fuck (Barbossa) for that to be the case? Then again, we'll probably get Elizabeth trying to lure him into her pants in 3 ...


And no, for any homophobic anonymous fucks who might be reading this, I don't give two rips about this "effect" on my 'ship of choice. J/W was never canon, so why would this matter if W/E didn't? Not every plotline in the world has to come back to who wants to fuck whom, which is precisely my continued, ranting point.

[vejiicakes.livejournal.com]

I totally did just notice that! I mean, I saw movement the first time I watched it, but I assumed she must've been pulling herself up or something, only this time I had more time to really take in the things that were happening onscreen and it was like, ...okay, no, she's just staying there WHA-? I sat there rather befuddled, hoping that she was steadying him for what I assume was the ship rocking much more than it appeared to be. I still don't know, though -_-

And no, believe me, envoking the Wrath of the Feminazis was not my intention ^_^;; Rather, I meant to convey that so delighted was I by the OMG SWORDFIGHTING and OMG BOY!LIZ HAWT and OMG SHE'S SAVING WILL that it.. kind of blinded me to how all the other junk she was doing (and what was being done to her) was really... rather lame -_- By the second viewing, the thrill had worn off, and I was able to watch with a slightly more objective POV. Only slightly because if fandom, but, you know.

Barbossa did seem to rather fancy her in the first movie, just that he never followed up, but I suppose there would have been no point in him trying. But now, presumably, he could. On top of the Elizabeth fanboy trifecta, that's somewhat worrisome. I do not savor the idea of Lizzie!gangbang -_-

[vejiicakes.livejournal.com]

*cough* .. because OF fandom...

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Nah, I thought you were trying to say you didn't want her around as much that first go, because of the italicized "so". ;-)

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I do not savor the idea of Lizzie!gangbang

You mean *implied* offscreen gangbang. This is Disney, after all ....

[vejiicakes.livejournal.com]

Well, you never know--I never expected Disney to be capable of ACK I EAT YOUR EYE and KRAKEN BUKKAKE CUM EVERYWHERE OH THE HUMANITY but, well... they did.

[pseudoblu.livejournal.com]

I just figured that Will didn't fight his arrest because when he told Elizabeth in the last movie that he'd accept the consequences of his actions he wasn't lying. It was when Elizabeth was charged that he started fighting because he may have a bit of a martyr complex but he doesn't want his loved ones to go down too.

This is interesting and I may have more to say when I think about it more. :)

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

My thing was, he does put up a token resistance - why do that at all if he's going to take his consequences? But actually, my bigger thing was more how he stands, doesn't speak up, just generally is rather ... unenthusiastic, in that scene. Because he's not like that the rest of the movie.

[venusinchains.livejournal.com]

I agree with vejiita4eva and pseudoblu (and in much more detail, over at potc_discussion :p).

~

I've started to think the whole "Liz whoring herself out" would bother me far less if it didn't thrill so many young fans so much. *says she who still hopes All Will Be Set Right in the final chapter*

~

I have my own pet "symbolism" scene (significant for J/W, of course). It's more than slightly ridiculous, but I think I'll post something about it in my _jack_sparrow_ journal sometime soon anyway. (I'm still comparing my wacky notes to the transcript that was linked to recently.)

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I've started to think the whole "Liz whoring herself out" would bother me far less if it didn't thrill so many young fans so much

You're far more concerned for children (including most teenage girls) than I am, which is probably par for the course, given my attitudes about kids. *G* I'm old and grumpy and I like it that way.

What is your pet symbolism scene? Just briefly, if you don't mind ...

[venusinchains.livejournal.com]

Promise not to laugh?

My favorite scene in the whole movie is the first stop at Tia Dalma's; there are just so many little things going on alongside the big important explanations. My favorite little thing is the gourd that bumps Will and Jack on the nose as Will makes the accusation: "You knew this." It turns out that a gourd, or even a gourd shaped object, can symbolize longevity, fertility, immortality and/or resurrection, depending on what God/s you claim.

How can a J/W fan not love it? :P

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Ahhhh, that's precious. I do love it. :-D

[metalkatt.livejournal.com]

Useful trivia! *HUGS YOU* I love useful things like this. Any others you spotted?

[venusinchains.livejournal.com]

"Any others you spotted?"

It seems that most of the "significant for J/W" bits I've spotted have already been mentioned by others, but there were a couple of (almost extraneous) bits of trivia attached to blacksmiths in general and an aside for my Gourd Theory that I'm still unsure of (even after multiple viewings of DMC - my memory is like a sieve) that I'm putting together for a post in my _jack_sparrow_ journal. I had planned to have it up already - but I'm painfully slow sometimes. :/ Maybe by tomorrow.

[heartofslash.livejournal.com]

So... if hats make one impotent, or at least less-in-control-of-one's-destiny, then if Jack had not spent so much time in Tortuga finding a hat that appealed to him during the giant bar brawl, he might not be in the belly of the beastie?

Just asking...

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

No, that's not what I mean. For Jack (and if you follow that link, it talks more in detail about the hat thing), the hat IS a power thing; for Will, it's not. I'm not sure why this is, but there are just characters that seem to fall into an "is" or "isn't" category. For example, Liz does pretty well with a hat, just like Jack does, but Norrington does not. (Maybe this gives credence to "opposites attract" for a J/W pairing and a N/E one, eh? LOL)

[elibad.livejournal.com]

I have no head for symbolism, but I think for Will, the hat thing is more transitional. In CoTBP, when Will is wearing the hat at the end, its definitely symbolic of the changes he's undergone as a result of his adventures, and the new man he's become.

In DMC, Will is diffident in the arrest scene, partially because he knows something is up, and waiting for the opportune moment (he's learning), and partially because this is who he is now, specifically with regards to Elizabeth and their relationship. Will idealizes Elizabeth which results in him catering to her, which in turn, results in her taking him for granted. The one time he does exert himself in this scene, ("Lord Beckett, in the category of questions not answered..."), Elizabeth cuts him off.

So, back to my transition theory, Will wearing the hat in this instance suggests both the changes since we've last seen him, and the changes he, and his relationship to Elizabeth, are due to under go. I didn't, don't and will never like the whole J/E thing in DMC, but it will undoubtedly put Will and Elizabeth on more even ground, relationship wise.

As for the boots, yup, they are working for Will, I even remember OB mentioning in an interview that he got boots, and yeah, they make him a bad ass. And as someone with a, er, thing for footwear, they so work for me as well, guh.

As for Norrington, I think, the loss of his hat and wig, the trappings of his former life, allow him to ignore what those things represented, his honor and duty, in his desperate attempts to get them back.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

In DMC, Will is diffident in the arrest scene, partially because he knows something is up, and waiting for the opportune moment (he's learning), and partially because this is who he is now, specifically with regards to Elizabeth and their relationship. Will idealizes Elizabeth which results in him catering to her, which in turn, results in her taking him for granted. The one time he does exert himself in this scene, ("Lord Beckett, in the category of questions not answered..."), Elizabeth cuts him off.

While I don't like the last part for the character, I *really* enjoy how Bloom works with this and marks this scene as definitely separate and apart from how he handles Will in the rest of the movie.

[elibad.livejournal.com]

Whipped!Will (and I don’t mean his reunion with dear old dad) is both incredibly irritating and strangely endearing, mostly because it seems so believable. I mean, Will is an orphan and while he may not have been seriously abused, he has probably been overlooked and neglected, with the exception of Elizabeth (and Jack, we can’t forget Jack). I sincerely doubt that Cmdr Norrington’s put down and dismissal of young William in CoTBP, was the first time he has been brushed off and ridiculed because of his background and station in life.

As a result of winning his ‘fair lady’s heart’ he’s been tossed into a world where he is considered inferior, and likely his temper only gets him into more trouble. So he differs to Elizabeth, she understands these “shark” infested waters so much better than he does. Also, the fact that the one time we saw him irritated with Elizabeth, she got all weepy and ran off, upset that Will couldn’t understand why she would have taken and kept the only thing of value (monetary and sentimental) a young boy who had (once again) lost everything, had, selfish git.

On the bright side, I do believe that this is a phenomenon restricted to Elizabeth, Will practically snarls at Governor Pops during the jail scene, when he thought ol’Therby may have been dissing him (and Jack, we can't forget Jack).

I have to agree whole heartedly on OB making a distinct line for his character with regards to SocietyWill and Pirate!Will. The distinction can also bee seen in the scene with Beckett, Will tones down his natural inclinations for ‘confrontation’ in a way he doesn’t later in scenes with Davy Jones. I’m not sure confrontation is the right word here, but Will’s a get-in-your-face kind of guy, and while he doesn’t exactly throw the gauntlet in Jones’ face he is definitely more “Will” like in his dealings with Jones than he is with Beckett. And like you, I am more inclined to give credit to OB. Just because he doesn’t chew through scenery like a mildly psychotic beaver with inferiority complex doesn’t mean the man can’t act.

And on a completely different note, while I am used to referring to the actors in may various fandoms by their initials (except Johnny, ‘cause he’s Johnny), the whole OB thing is giving me 5th grade sex ed flash backs.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Just because he doesn’t chew through scenery like a mildly psychotic beaver with inferiority complex

You know us Americans - if it's not loud, obnoxious, and over-the-top, it's not worth watching, ROFL. I love how detractors bitch and moan and hate that he doesn't react strongly enough, and when you point out the man is classically-trained (how often, in seven years of "Star Trek," did Jean-Luc Picard ever jump up and down and scream and yell like a banshee?), they sort of hem-haw around and mutter something about his age. One time, I actually had a hater tell me that OB shouldn't take roles he's offered if they're something he hasn't done before. (You know, just like I pass up writing articles for the paper that I've never done before. Uh huh.)

[elibad.livejournal.com]

I have to admit that the sheer volume and virulence of the hatred often surprises me, hate comms, reviewers hoping for violent deaths, its sad and a little sick. Seriously people, if you dislike him that much don't go see his films, don't buy the magazines he's all over and in. There will be another along right away, without him in it, somewhere.

Really, it's all about personal preference, there are a whack of actors I dislike (one in PoTC, in fact), complete with legitimate reasons and reasonable explanations (to me anyways), but some of these people who claim the 'hate' have seen everything he's ever been in (*I* just saw Elizabethtown this past weekend) quote all the scenes he sucks the hardest in (hee, look ma I'm twelve, and a slasher) sometimes it seems wordy old Bill had it right,"The lady doth protest too much, me thinks."

It's not 'cool' to like OB for various reasons; he's too pretty (one suggestion was he should just quit acting and model), he gets more coverage than personal favorites, he's had it too easy, hasn't paid his dues, yadda, yadda, blah, blah. But you said it, anyone given opportunities like his would un-apologetically jump at them and tell all detractors to 'bloody well sod off'.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

there are a whack of actors I dislike (one in PoTC, in fact)

OK, now I've gotta ask who this is. *G*

some of these people who claim the 'hate' have seen everything he's ever been in

I don't quite get that. If they've seen a big-name movie or a movie starring someone else and OB happened to be in it and they didn't like him, I can understand they didn't go to see him anyway. Fair enough. But if you hate someone, why would see a movie where they are the main star? I avoid Ben Affleck and most Kevin Costner movies like the plague for this reason - I don't like their acting, but I don't search for places to post my dislike.

And you want to talk about not paying dues? What about Haley Joel Osmet? Dakota Fanning? Brooke Shields? Topher Grace (for whom "That 70s Show" was his first job)? That's a copout reason to hate on someone; at least OB went to school for several years to be an actor.

[elibad.livejournal.com]

OK, now I've gotta ask who this is.

Keira Knightly. I quite liked her in CotBP, but then I saw 'Bend it like Beckham'. A lovely little film, with the exception of all the screeching and weird over-annunciation. The next time I watched CotBP, I found myself wishing she'd be less shrill. Pretty much avoided anything she's done since, with the exception of DMC. And I can honestly say, with respect to DMC, I have struggled with my dislike of the actor and my general discontent with her character's story arch.

at least OB went to school for several years to be an actor.

I think that *this* may be part of the issue. I mean, after graduating from a prestigious arts school, instead of suffering for his art in some obscure London theater, he went right into a minor, but visible role, in LoTR. Then while the whole LoTR thing was still playing out, he fell into (out of?) another minor but pivotal role in 'Blackhawk Down', then did a turn as 'Turner'. Pretty much everything he has done has been high profile, if not successful.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I actually liked "Bend It Like Beckham," probably partly because she DIDN'T get the guy in that one - he wasn't even interested in her (which I wouldn't care about if absolutely every man in POTC didn't pant after her). But I thought the music was great, and I like those types of movies anyway.

It's true part of OB's success has been his good looks. They've certainly opened doors for him; I just don't like it when someone presumes because someone is attractive, they can't have any talent beyond that. But, Johnny grew out of that criticism from the 80s, so may he will, too.

[elibad.livejournal.com]

Don't get me wrong, I really liked 'Bend it like Beckham', loved Parminder Nagra so much I actually tuned into ER for the first time in eons (and tuned right back out immediately, apologizing to Parminder repeatedly under my breath). It was just that moment in time when I realized I didn't like Keira.

Johnny grew out of that criticism from the 80s

And the 90s, in fact the universal 'Johnny' love seems fairly *cough* Captain Jack *cough* new. I mean Johnny has not always been considered the fantastic actor he is today, and he was, is, often criticized for his role selection, 'The Libertine' being the most recent.

[nightengale.livejournal.com]

I really like what you've done here. Really expanded on the kernel of hat metaphor and gone a long way toward figuring out how it would apply to the whole cast in personalized ways. Kudos!

To reply to a thread of the comments, however, about Elizabeth:

I saw her potentially bodiceripper clasping-Jack's-leg thing as nothing but a practical precaution: She'd just gotten yanked off her feet by the Kraken, and she wasn't about to let it happen again. There was no time for a third chance, you know? And she was already *down* there - if she'd been standing and thrown herself to the floor to support him, I'd have an issue. As it is, I really think it was just her being smart.

And about the kissing thing...

Liz has been fascinated by pirates since she was little. Jack is the most piratey pirate she's ever met, and he likes her. He's worked closely with her and she has immense respect for him. I believe it's feasible that she's bandied around the idea of getting with him in her head - but never been actually willing to act on it, not only because of the hygiene issue ;D but also because she's engaged, hello.

She kisses Jack to distract him so she can shackle him, force him to face the Kraken, and save the crew.

She likes it because she isn't immune to Jack's mystique, Jack's advances, and most importantly, her own curiosity. I think it's really important to note she doesn't kiss him again, even though she hovers and almost lurches forward for a second kiss; she tells him she's not sorry and leaves.

Not sorry for what? For kissing him? For shackling him, thereby proving she's really become a pirate? Or for both at once: Perhaps (this is my take) she's not sorry that she manipulated - and so dirtied, or spoiled - the attraction both of them feel in order to get her advantage over him.

Not for a moment do I think Liz was intending to indulge in anything but tricking Jack. The kiss had power over her, which I think surprised her as much as its existence did Jack.


...No, I don't jump to defend any of the core three against attacks against their character, what do you mean? XD


In all seriousness, I think At World's End will show us that Elizabeth's made of the same stuff as Jack is, and the same as we're discovering (via boots/lack-of-hat evidence) that Will is too. They're all pirates of the highest caliber, though only one of them's had very long to practice the trade. The other two...will catch up soon enough. The potential's there. ^__^

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Yay for sartorial discussion!

My opinions on Elizabeth are varied, complex, and not altogether favorable to her. You can venture back just a short ways into my LJ posts if you want. Suffice to say I'm one of the few people who does not think Jack and Elizabeth are IN TRUE LURVE, and further, it annoys the hell out of me that the scriptwriters would perpetuate this illogical and unfounded concept on their fangirls. But that's just me. ;-)

I must offer the disclaimer, lest I be maligned later as misrepresenting an objective POV, that I am an avid J/W slasher. However, I've never had a problem with W/E, or really, any combination of characters until now, and only with J/E. My avatar says it all.