To paraphrase ...

[veronica_rich]

... the erstwhile fabu, if you want me to look at your art and comment, or read your story, it helps not to just throw in random character-bashing in the product description. While I realize a great deal of fanfic apparently can't exist without the crushing defeat, emasculation, or villainizing of a non-villain character I like, I was not aware visual arts that don't even feature the character in question could fall under the same guidelines. When you draw a perfectly cute little scene that I would otherwise happily comment upon and feel the need to note that it's celebrating getting rid of said character (when such information is really not germane to the drawing), you can expect no comment from me. :-D

Oh, sure, it's your art, and you can say what you want in your own journal. Just don't expect as much feedback as you might've gotten otherwise, especially if you're going to crosspost to general communities where everyone may not appreciate your bon mot as much as your pairing-specific friends do. I know too many artists who don't resort to throwing in random desultory comments when presenting their work, and they're more deserving of praise.

Comments

[yoiebear.livejournal.com]

You have now made me very curious about said art, but I am at work and really, really shouldn't look....

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

It's a shared community of ours, you can easily find it. Just look for any art featuring Jack and Elizabeth.

[yoiebear.livejournal.com]

I just got to see it and am completely appalled by the audacity of this person!

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

*scrolls down to see what you're talking about*

*rolls eyes in disgust*

Grrrr. This is NOT what I want to see in my happy little fannish world.

*stomps off to work, muttering to self*

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

*pats head* Not everybody handles sparrabeth as well as you do, dearie. Now you understand why my eye twitches so much (well ... as much as it can on a screen). Which is a shame, since most of POTC fandom is allover positive these days for all the characters - hell, even Davy Jones is getting good press.

Methinks I might have to write some fic to balance myself out this afternoon. Nothing related to this, just the fact that I've had a couple of ideas kicking around for three weeks and never did anything with them.

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

most of POTC fandom is allover positive these days for all the characters - hell, even Davy Jones is getting good press.

True. But that's so OOC it makes me want to throw it across the room.

Methinks I might have to write some fic to balance myself out this afternoon. Nothing related to this, just the fact that I've had a couple of ideas kicking around for three weeks and never did anything with them.

Wouldn't be any Will/James, would it? *bats eyelashes at you hopefully*

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

As much as I love Willington, I've never taken a stab at writing it. I might at some point, but I'm not sure this story is right for it. *G*

Yeah - if Davy can the love, what the hell, Will?

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

That should be "writing sparrabeth." Not a general "handles," since I can handle it just fine myself. *G*

[golden-helikaon.livejournal.com]

How about a 'lets-get-rid-of-childish-character-bashers' party, hm?

I'm loathed to say it's a good bit of art, because I think it is, but the reasoning for it is, well, crap.

[starrdust411.livejournal.com]

I saw that picture and it broke my heart. Everything that user has drawn before then has been so cute and sweet and now that she randomly bashed Will for no reason puts a sour taste in my mouth. I don't like Elizabeth, but I don't go around bashing her in my fanfics when I know some pro-Lizzie people might be out there. :(

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

The only times I wrote anything that could be considered Elizabeth-negative, I wrote from her POV to partly sympathize with her. But this description doesn't even have anything to do with the drawing - it'd be like me posting a lovely photomanip of Jack and Will at the pub and noting that they'd just come back from dancing on Elizabeth's freshly-turned grave. WTF?

[mneiai.livejournal.com]

I have no idea what's going on, but that's just a bad policy to have. No matter how much you hate a character, your fanwork isn't the place to talk about it. ::shakes head:: The goal isn't to ostracize half of a fandom.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Just a drawing I came across on my f-list that, by only looking at it alone, you'd get the idea it's simply merry and cute. It's just when you read the artist's note, you kind of raise your eyebrow and go "what does that have to do with this?"

If you're going to use your art to bash, at least be creative and a bit subtler about it than you'd be in your description, eh? Otherwise, you might as well just write a post on "Why I Hate XX."

[pseudoblu.livejournal.com]

Now you've made me curious. I'm sure I'll come across it if I haven't already.

And yes, I agree. There have been a couple times I've come across probably lovely things, but a bashing comment in the author notes will leave me fuming. I'm proud of myself for walking away each time. So far, anyway. Grr.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Even if I see something and the description bashes on a character I don't like very much myself, I think *How good can it be?* and usually pass it up. There are better ways to give such warnings; there are better ways to tell such stories.

In this case, the artwork visual precedes the description, so it harshed my squee over the drawing. With fic, it's usually the other way around. The sad thing is, both the drawing and the fic might be very good in themselves - so what is the point of note? If you dislike things a character did, why not just do what I do, and write the occasional "RAWR RAWR" post/meta about it in your journal? Shit, that's the whole reason I rant occasionally about Elizabeth, so it won't bleed too hard into my writing.

[pseudoblu.livejournal.com]

I found the piece in question right before I had to leave for work so I didn't have time to follow up. Yeah, that made me sad because I'd been enjoying her style and little comments. I've been avoiding the Sparrabeth places so my squee is not harshed and now I'm afraid I'm going to give her stuff a pass because I'd really rather not be in the middle of a comic or something and have a bitchy anti-Will comment through me out.

That's the second fan thing I've seen in the past couple days that was perfectly lovely until I took the time to read author notes. This one because, as you said, the picture came first, and the other was an Elizabeth fanmix that had the notes be white text on a white background for some reason. She proceeded to say she was against W/E because he wasn't good enough for her and blah blah J/E is great blah blah. I saw red and forced myself to close the page. The songs weren't that interesting anyway. >:P

[erinya.livejournal.com]

Really sad, because the art without the note would have been super-cute, but the author's note made it completely OOC. :-(

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I know. I was ready to comment positively when I opened it. But since I can't bring myself to bitch at someone about their fic or artwork, I just didn't put anything. I think it's fair to warn a reader about something in a story (not "I hate Elizabeth, whee!" but "things do not end happily for one of our characters" or some such), but I don't consider notes that really have nothing to do with the artwork or story as part of that art.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Well, scratch that, I DID reply to someone who replied to a tease of mine. Let's hope someone who doesn't bash in the name of a pairing (like you) comes along to point out I'm wrong.

[erinya.livejournal.com]

Not like it matters if I do; people who want to make that generalization will make it anyway, regardless of any and all evidence to the contrary--and regardless of the fact that your comment was more or less sarcastic.

*is bitter*

I really shouldn't care what people think, but I'm so, so sick and tired of hitting my head against the brick wall of that stereotype. I'm also sick and tired of the character bashing. It's like...assholes everywhere I turn, you know? I really need to learn how to pretend they don't exist, and maybe they will go away. The Jack Sparrow approach to dealing with fandom...

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't worry about it. People who know you know what you are and the rest don't matter so much. It seems I am like Don Quixote, tilting at windmills that won't fall over no matter how much of a beating I give them, and those are the ones that don't care anyway. So we're each trapped in our own little prison because we care too much. :-)

[erinya.livejournal.com]

Someday, I will learn to pick my battles?

And that you can't fight stupid with, well, anything. Although fire might work.

[venusinchains.livejournal.com]

I'm afraid I responded to it. I tried to keep it short and simple. My point should be clear enough, but I'm not sure how it'll be received. :-p

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Well, if you're into S&M, that should do it. *G*

I suspect comments that don't cater to her sense of happiness and well-being will be ignored. Then again, if I were the type to include such notes to my works, I'd probably have the same reaction.

[elibad.livejournal.com]

I've been attempting to refrain from commenting, which obviously, I suck at. XP My attempts at being all 'tolerant and understanding' (i.e. un-smug) are being undermined by the 'idiots', dammit.

The Will bashing. Yeah, okay, whatthefuckever. He's a good, strong, upstanding character who gets the girl and is played by an actor perceived by some as somehow threatening to Johnny's (fangirl favorite? big hot stud? Master of the Universe?) status. This clearly makes him a pansy or whelp or whatever the hell they are insulting him with these days.

And can I just add; wow, little Miss (that's Mrs now) Freedom and Independence being talked 'into' a dress, how delightful. Is that better or worse than being talked 'out of' her dress?

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I don't want to confuse the Elizabeth fans. There are at least two distinct groups: Those who actually like her and would like her regardless of the other characters, and don't need to bash anyone else to like her. Then there are those whom I suspect don't necessarily like her so much as they like her *better* than a character they hate. And that's hard to fathom, especially since I can make a list of reasons for being annoyed with Elizabeth, and I still don't hate her (although I admit I have stated once or twice that, given the choice between James and Will dying, or her, I've shamefully picked her).

[captsparrow4evr.livejournal.com]

I have to disagree with whoever above said that it was good. If you're going to draw something and have the audacity to insult a major character in that fandom, at least make sure you draw well enough to make the characters look like what they're supposed to look like. It's immature work from an immature mind. Maybe someday, that artist will grow up and produce something of worth. That drawing just isn't it.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

No, it's not the Mona Lisa. But without the disparaging comment, it's at least cutesy, and that's all I was going to tell her.

[kahva.livejournal.com]

Bwuh??

I've got the feeling that there's a post in a community somewhere that I should be glad that I'm not a part of that community, at least as far as the post in question goes. Going back to cleaning off the HD on-air servers now, I think I'm safer there.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

If you don't belong to pirategasm, normally I'd say no, you're not better off (and if you do, you probably didn't see it because the artist's notes weren't above the cut) because it's a great community. Just a sour apple here and there ruins the taste every once in a great while.

[kahva.livejournal.com]

Ah no, not a member of pirategasm, so I haven't seen it. I may have belonged at one point when I was on a few different communities, but some time back I left a few because I was getting so many duplicate postings.

I'll never understand character bashing. If you don't like a character, fine, that's your choice and priviledge. But bashing what is in the end a fictional character seems like such a waste of time and energy to me. Not to mention the fact that while you may not like a character, somebody else does like him/her/they/it. In a community setting, you have to respect that.

[kahva.livejournal.com]

"Privilege", even. I swear, I am actually awake here at work, and I can spell, really I can.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

It's that guilty "boss is gonna catch me!" typing that's doing it. *G*

[kahva.livejournal.com]

If any of my bosses had still been at work at the time I was typing that, that would've meant that something was wrong sure enough! I work second shift, so I manage to get most folks out of my hair by 1900. :)

Though I am pondering if I should've felt guilty posting from work on the same day I won an award for being a good worker. {Ponders} Nah... ;)

[theoneissilent.livejournal.com]

My curiosity got the better of me and I scrolled back over my flist and found the drawing (can't bring myself to call it artwork) you were talking about. Normally I just skip over anything that appears to be Jack/Elizabeth oriented because I figure it won't be favorable towards my boy. I have enough stress in my life, thank you very much, and I don't need to get upset by thoughtless (read that witless) people. The best way to avoid, is to ignore. I love Will......period. I do not understand how anyone can hate the character, but to each his own. I don't bash other characters and I don't think its funny or cute to say disparaging things about something or someone that other people like - especially in a fandom that is supposed to celebrate ALL the characters. The thing that bothered me the most about the post though, was the way she just blew it off as being surprised that the "Will" people would take it seriously or be offended by it.P-L-E-A-S-E.
We all know that if we said something like that about Jack in a forum that was dedicated to all the characters, we'd be ripped to shreads! Why isn't Will afforded the same amount of courtesy as the other characters? I know I shouldn't let this bother me, but I am soooooooo tired of people bashing my beautiful, heroic, selfless boy.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Yep. I'd say probably the only other set of fans who have as legitimate a complaint as we do about the bashing in fandom are Elizabeth fans. It seems like she and Will are the only ones consistently picked at - and the hell of it is, you know the attitude behind it is that junior-high "if you like this, YOU must be stupid, too." *eyeroll*

[theoneissilent.livejournal.com]

I guess I never noticed the Elizabeth bashing thing because up until the 3rd movie, I really didn't like her. I was mildly annoyed by her in the first movie 'cause I though she was sort of spoiled and self centered ( I can still see her telling Jack that the whole Navy will be out looking for HER). By the end of the second movie I actually loathed her. She wanted to be all independent and free and yet it never stopped her from playing the sex appeal card whenever it served her purpose. Not an admirable trait in my book. And even though I was prepared to dislike her in the third movie, I think she finally matured as a character. She finally ran into a situation that she could neither control or manipulate - her father's death. That was the start of it. She actually started to understand that she is not the center of the universe. She was pissed at Will for his betrayal because she never expected it from him, but when she met his father she started to understand Will's dilemma. She started to understand that even though he loves her, he does have other obligations. And excuse me, but from her reaction to Will's injury and subsequent death, this is not a woman that would be partying and celebrating that she got "rid" of Will. Maybe Anonymous there doesn't think anything about a little "throwaway" comment, but I wonder how some people would react if I had a picture of Elizabeth dancing and laughing after DMC and my comment would be "I just fed Jack to the Kraken...ha ha ha". It would be classless.....'nuf said.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Even the annoyances I had with DMC Elizabeth, I went into AWE with an open mind, partly because I knew how it would end and I figured I'd do well just to keep up without getting all teary over Will anyway. *G*

But the scenes between her and Will struggling to communicate/not talk about the elephant in the room really got to me - I liked them. While he thought she was in love with Jack, her response didn't strike me that way at all - it was more "I did something bad, I can't contemplate how horrible it was, and if I do this successfully, I won't have to anymore." And then she lost her dad, and for a little while, I was still all snarky about J/E (I mean, PLEASE - her presence is what jolts Jack out of his delirium. It's not because he's in love with her, it's because he doesn't think it odd if those other people are in his dreamscape. And when she runs to jump in after Weatherby, I notice he's the only one who doesn't follow - hell, even Barbossa chases her. How concerned for her safety can he be?). But when she met Bill, that's what did it. THAT is where Bill earned his keep, as far as I'm concerned - pulling her attention off herself and onto Will, from his POV for a change.

[(Anonymous)]

Please tell me this isn't response to the "we got rid of Will party" thing. This all seems a little harsh for a throwaway comment like that. It's like she said, "And Will Turner is a one dimensional character woodenly portrayed by Orlando Bloom, and he should just die so there." Yes, it would be nice if everyone liked every character, etc etc. But you have to respect people's rights to state their opinions. If you say, "that's a cute drawing," you're not thereby associating yourself with "character bashing." Sorry, I think I'm sort of rambing. I'll try this :) Point of comment: Everybody just relax.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

If you think this is "harsh" for me, you haven't been reading for very long, and you've definitely never clicked on anything political I've posted. I didn't say she couldn't write what she wanted; I simply stated she shouldn't expect as much feedback as she might've otherwise garnered.

As for other commenters, these are their opinions - it's not me under 20 different usernames. Maybe they're getting sick of the bashing, too, after four years.

Delurking

[muttszzz.livejournal.com]

Feel free to delete as I might be going a bit overboard here.

I think everyone is relax. They're just stating their opinions, much like the artist under discussion did with her throwaway comment.

Interesting though, that of all the commenters on this topic so far, you're the only to repeat word for word that throwaway comment.

Re: Delurking

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Nope. No deleties here.

I'm well aware my grumbling could be taken as me being too sensitive about the subject. That's okay. I think anyone who spends any time on something they like has to care at least a little bit about it, otherwise, why bother? At least I admit there's an hour a day I take my hobby "seriously" - I'd say if you're going to go to the time and trouble to draw a picture and post it, then say "oh, I don't take it seriously at all!" that THAT is being hypocritical. You take it a *little* seriously. (Although it's a good wriggle-attempt out of taking responsibility for anything you post. *G*)

[pir8fancier.livejournal.com]

Link?