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veronica_rich ([personal profile] veronica_rich) wrote2006-04-30 09:23 pm
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Good trip and fictional musings

Three weeks ago, my friend Susan got married, to a college professor she's known for more than a year. Like me, Susan is in her almost-mid-30s and I didn't think she'd ever get married, even though she did date and had lived with a guy before this one. At any rate, she was never searching for a husband, so I think that's the best way to go. (Unlike me - I do not live well with other humans, and I know this from experience. Sex would not abate that.)

Last night I went to her delayed wedding reception, and met a lot of new people (and some old ones, from the wedding and once or twice before, mostly his friends who'd adopted her into their circle). Susan was telling me how I ought to move closer to them (they live 100 miles from me, which is hard to visit because of gas prices) - of course I can't because of decreased job possibilities. But anyway, it was much fun and it's the first time in a long time that I've drank a LOT, didn't get drunk, and woke up this morning without a headache. Maybe I'm aging in reverse! LOL


Okay, fictional musings. In order to proceed to this next part, you have to have an interest in POTC2, you have to not be scared off by some spoilers (believe it or not, I am trying to avoid really major ones, but I've been sucked into looking at some of the still photos and seeing the two trailers now out), and you have to watch the current Japanese trailer first, especially near the end. It can be found at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZhzUAs5W7I&eurl if you haven't seen it.


Near the end is a very brief cut-in scene of what looks like Jack and Elizabeth very close, facing, his hands up, almost like they're about to kiss or something. That's what I'm referring to herein.

I certainly hope this is either one of them leaning in to bluff and make a point, or a quick kiss that will result in the same reaction Marty McFly and Lorraine Baines had to each other in the 1950s part of "Back to the Future" when Lorraine tried to kiss him and felt icky for it.

HOWEVER ... I do not have the faith in the writers that others in this fandom seem to. My opinion is the first movie was saved much on the backs of Johnny and Gore fixing dialogue and plot points (I don't mean the other actors weren't good; what I mean is the writers did a less than stellar job and were saved from themselves. Listen to the writer commentary on the DVD sometime and how often they talk about being asked to change the script here and there, and THEIR ideas of what made the movie so successful). I have a worry - in the fictional sense, of course; I realize this isn't war in Iran or "real world" stuff - that these two are going to try to set up the old, tired, lame-ass "conflict between two men for the love of a woman" angle, using Will, Jack, and Elizabeth.

I know some on my f-list will disagree with my following statement just like some will disagree about my previous statement about Ted and Terry, but I'll say it anyway: Jack and Elizabeth are NOT a feasible pairing. They are too alike. They would work well together to achieve an end, and they could have a fabulous mentor-student partnership. But sexually? Just - NO. There IS tension in that threesome, but it's not between Jack and Will for the attentions of Elizabeth ...

[identity profile] veronica-rich.livejournal.com 2006-05-01 03:07 pm (UTC)(link)
You might want to surf back over here and read [livejournal.com profile] ref_1985's comment about what she read in the supposed script. I see major J v. W conflict ahead, and not necessarily in a good way.

[identity profile] veronica-rich.livejournal.com 2006-05-01 03:15 pm (UTC)(link)
Of course, you know what I REALLY want, that Disney wouldn't do in a million years, is for Will to confront Jack, angrily, and Jack to admit it was a ploy simply to get at Will. Sparks fly!

Hmm .......

Oh yes. This can be salvaged in fanfic. Heh.

[identity profile] captsparrow4evr.livejournal.com 2006-05-01 03:25 pm (UTC)(link)
I read it. As I said before, it doesn't encourage me about the film but it doesn't really _dis_courage me either. Just makes my anxiety level go up.:) Eek.

[identity profile] captsparrow4evr.livejournal.com 2006-05-01 03:29 pm (UTC)(link)
My sympathies are always with Jack, no matter what. I love Will too, though. If they end up on opposite sides of something somehow, well, then we can always go AU in fan-fic and rearrange things as we see fit. Heck, my sister pointed out the other day that Disney should be coming after us fan-fic writers one and all for playing in their sandbox. They don't do that because they know that we're good for business in the long run.

Viva la slash!!

[identity profile] veronica-rich.livejournal.com 2006-05-01 03:29 pm (UTC)(link)
I confess, as detrimental as it might be for the canon relationship of Jack and Will, as a writer AND as someone who has argued that Orlando CAN act quite well, I really do look forward to Will being darker and more dangerous later on.

But to arrive at it by throwing Jack at Elizabeth? I mean, when people watch the trilogy 20 years from now, is it going to consist of "Awwww, look, there's where their LURVVVVVVE started - ewww, you mean she liked WILL first??" Yeeeesh. This is sort of why I like the slash instead - not the sap and starry-eyed stuff, but the idea of Jack and Will fitting together so well in many ways.

[identity profile] veronica-rich.livejournal.com 2006-05-01 03:31 pm (UTC)(link)
You know what - if they do end up on opposite ends, that'd honestly probably do MORE for Turrow slashfic in the long run.

*goes off to work and think*
nobleplatypus: (aslan cries)

[personal profile] nobleplatypus 2006-05-01 05:20 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm going to have to watch the writers' commentary sometime in order to fully appreciate what sort of a job they did, but my reaction just from reading the comments... oy.

I was apprehensive as soon as I heard that they were making a sequel because I thought (still do, really), that the first movie was ten times more successful than it really ought to have been (not because I thought it was a bad movie that got too much attention, but because we're talking about a movie based on a theme park ride, so everyone was expecting something about on par with "The Country Bears"), and I thought they were really pushing their luck with not only one, but two sequels. I just don't see how the heck the sequels could possibly live up to the original, which surprised the world by being awesome. It's like being the younger sibling of a child prodigy--you're going to have to really fucking shine if you don't want to pale in comparison.

And from the comments (and other spoilers I hunted down out of morbid curiosity), I now have little reason to believe that this is going to be anywhere near as good as the first. -_- Jack "wants" Elizabeth, now? Frankly, I can't imagine him loving any woman more than he loves his boat, his gold, and himself. :P And I wouldn't have him any other way. I have a feeling this is going to be one of many contrived conflicts injected into the story in order to drag things out for three movies when only one sequel--if any--is necessary.

[identity profile] kaellana.livejournal.com 2006-05-01 05:54 pm (UTC)(link)
Followed the link to here from [livejournal.com profile] arrrrr. :D

I've been reading all the spoilers since day one - I don't know how much you want to know, but I'll just say that in both the sequels all the characters get a lot darker (and a lot more developed); Jack, Will, Elizabeth and Norrington.

*minor spoilers*

I see [livejournal.com profile] ref_1985 already gave you the spoiler from the script extract. In that instance, the J/E kiss is no different to Elizabeth plying Jack with rum to get off the island, or promising marriage to Norrington in order to pursue Will. She is being, as always, piratical, and using whatever tools she has to get what she wants.

There's some more stuff I could hint at for you with regards to Jack's feelings for Elizabeth, but in case you don't want to be spoiled further I won't say anything more at the moment. :)

[identity profile] veronica-rich.livejournal.com 2006-05-01 06:07 pm (UTC)(link)
If you're just going to hint at me, go right ahead and post it *G*.

(If you'll scout around the comments here, I had written at one point my suspicion about Jack being Elizabeth's daddy. I'd probably laugh so loud the theater security would have to be called, if that happened.)

[identity profile] kaellana.livejournal.com 2006-05-01 06:39 pm (UTC)(link)
Heh heh... all right, a watered down version. ;D

Let's get one thing out of the way – Jack has always wanted Elizabeth, right from when they first met. But wait, wait, I don't mean that like it sounds. Jack has always desired her. From "easy on the goods" to casually slinging his arm around her shoulder on the island... he wanted to have her, if only once. Which is, in my mind, perfectly in keeping with his character - this isn't love, but pure piratical lust, Jack's heart's desire remains the Pearl, through and through. What's more, Jack's always been certain he could have Elizabeth, if the opportunity arose. He's a compulsive ladies man, after all, and the idea that his charm doesn't work on everyone is (to him) inconceivable.

Elizabeth knows this, and uses it to her advantage several times in DMC (yes, there are a couple more J/E scenes), to the point where you actually feel quite sorry for Jack. She does the job so well that several other characters (and perhaps even herself, for a time) are convinced she feels something for Jack, something that maybe even surpasses base physical attraction. A major theme that spans over both sequels is trust, or rather the lack of it; due to various actions taken by various people (not only Elizabeth and Jack) the characters stop trusting each other. The only pair that remain sure of each other are Will and Elizabeth.

[identity profile] veronica-rich.livejournal.com 2006-05-01 06:44 pm (UTC)(link)
**EYEROLL** (No, not aimed at you. I quite thank you for your insight, actually.)

Well, it'll be interesting, is all I can say about it, LOL. I'm a J/W girl at heart (and I believe it could be borne out by canon), but I decided long ago to just approach the movies as Disney canon and see what the writers and actors can come up with that I'm willing to believe. I just hope the sequels are as good as the original, is my main thing.

[identity profile] captsparrow4evr.livejournal.com 2006-05-01 07:13 pm (UTC)(link)
The only pair that remain sure of each other are Will and Elizabeth.

Hmmm, so we don't see Jack and Will's friendship tested by their mutual "feelings" for Elizabeth? Will doesn't question Elizabeth's fidelity at all even though he supposedly sees this snog with Jack? I don't know about that. (Then again, were I Will, I'd always be questioning Light-fingered Lizzie's motives. Probably why she and Jack are "peas in a pod.")

In any case, we knew from the very first movie that Jack was a sexual opportunist. Hoping for possibilities with any lovely is in his nature so just the fact that he "desires" Elizabeth doesn't mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things.

[identity profile] kaellana.livejournal.com 2006-05-01 07:25 pm (UTC)(link)
Interesting would be the right word, indeed! *G* Personally I do think the sequels will match the original, although others have their doubts. There's a little part of me that thinks they might even surpass the original, but I'm not going to tempt fate, just in case. Though many characters are taken in new directions, their actions are always justified by the writers, it's not suddenly "omg he lurves her!1!!", or "omg he hates him!1!" - which is all most people can usually hope for when sequels are on the horizon.

[identity profile] kaellana.livejournal.com 2006-05-01 07:28 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh no, Jack and Will's friendship is definitely tested (and not just because of Elizabeth), and Will does have very real worries about his fiancé. Perhaps "remain sure of each other" was poor wording on my part, apologies. What I meant to say was, despite whatever doubts or worries each has for the other, Will and Elizabeth remain a solid duo, fighting for the same overall thing. :)

[identity profile] veronica-rich.livejournal.com 2006-05-01 08:04 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, I realized that about her - I mean, that is what she did on the island, to get her way.

Here's the problem I have with the whole thing: It presumes that Elizabeth will do the same thing over and over and over, when I would have pegged her as smarter than that. And it presumes that Jack is so desperate to get laid that he'll be made an idiot of time and time and time again by it.

Now for the time period she's in, sex may well be the biggest gambling chip Elizabeth possesses, and I don't know that I would condemn that. But I've spent almost 3 years under the impression Jack is savvier than that, especially since he had her number, basically, in the storyline of the first movie ("peas in a pod" indeed. What the hell else would he have meant by it? He knows she's an opportunist). Why would he be dumb enough to fall for it again and again and again?

[identity profile] veronica-rich.livejournal.com 2006-05-01 08:06 pm (UTC)(link)
No, that Jack is an opportunist isn't in question. It's that he would be made a repeated fool of for such over the same woman is what makes me cock an eyebrow in askance. Did I simply misunderstand Jack's intelligence in the first movie, or are the writers drunk?

[identity profile] captsparrow4evr.livejournal.com 2006-05-01 09:03 pm (UTC)(link)
Okay, totally into fantasy land here:


The big ending of PotC 3 which we are all waiting for:

Jack throws Elizabeth overboard and drops a dinghy nearby with a few days worth of hard tack and a bottle of rum. He bids her "Ta!" and sails off into the sunset. As they are making way, another ship--a Navy ship--hoves into view and signals the Pearl with a flag of truce. Jack hollers over to ask what the Navy ship wants and it's Norrington, who tells him he has a package for delivery to the master of the Pearl. "So give it!" Jack says. Will, dressed like a musketeer (again), swings over and snaps off a nice salute to Norrington. "Thanks very much for the ride, Commodore." They continue on their merry way. Meantime, Elizabeth signals the Dauntless wildly. Norrington notices her and calls to her, "Yes, Miss Swann?" To which Elizabeth says, "Rescue me! I'll marry you!!" James' response? "Um, no," Roll end credits.:)

[identity profile] veronica-rich.livejournal.com 2006-05-01 09:14 pm (UTC)(link)
At this point, we really don't know what's going to happen, so it's hard to speculate anything. Could be the PR people are simply stirring stuff up to get more people in the theater seats - that's the name of the game, especially for Disney, which is looking at earnings losses on its movies for the past few years.

But as a plot point, I'd think Will would have to do something to Jack to get him to act this way toward him (Will) - Jack IS a pirate, IS dishonest (to a point), but he has his own weird honor system. He'd have to be screwed over - or think he is - to turn on Will.

[identity profile] veronica-rich.livejournal.com 2006-05-01 09:15 pm (UTC)(link)
LOL!

And when you boil everything down, THAT'S what it's all about anyway - fantasyland. It's not that Disney and the writers don't have the right to write anything they want about these characters - it's that we the fans feel we have ownership in them when we really don't, not while it's still an active franchise.

[identity profile] veronica-rich.livejournal.com 2006-05-01 09:18 pm (UTC)(link)
As I was telling someone else on this post, it all boils down to fantasyland - we may feel an ownership in the characters, but the people who brought them to life, invented them, have the right to do whatever they want with them. (I only ask that anything they do have a basis in some sort of logic progression.)

[identity profile] veronica-rich.livejournal.com 2006-05-01 09:18 pm (UTC)(link)
I love your avatar there ...

[identity profile] dressagespirit.livejournal.com 2006-05-01 11:07 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you for voicing what I've been thinking but what I've been afraid to say. Sorry, but I don't like Elizabeth. She is reckless and lives in a world that is so very different from the one both Jack and Will live in. Would Jack want her simply because she's a woman? Well, he IS an opportunist, so, yes in that respect. But I just don't see him falling for her chicanery. I mean, come on, the man has way more intelligence and cunning than that. He wouldn't have survived for so long or gotten his ship back without it.

On another note, I believe in Jack as the mythic Trickster/Trickster Hero figure, and the proposed scene with Elizabeth just doesn't work for that, IMO. I was concerned to read that Depp was the one who had to point out to T&T that Jack is a Trickster (his comparison was to Bugs Bunny, like the writers mention on the DVD) and that Jack does not change. I wonder what T&T are thinking of Jack. It's also a bit discouraging that they don't seem to have the script for No. 3 written and yet they are filming it. Verbinski even has seemed disturbed in the interviews I've seen written with him, making comments about never filming two movies at once again.

The trailers and spoilers really cause me to wonder if I will see the sequels. The first movie was just so fresh and different - IMO because of Depp's portrayal of Jack - that I'm not sure I want that ruined.

Again, these are all my opinions, and I know that many folks are very happy about the spoilers and the possible storylines.

[identity profile] veronica-rich.livejournal.com 2006-05-02 12:10 am (UTC)(link)
I want to take this opportunity to clarify something else, as well - no, you didn't say it; nobody has, yet. But it NEEDS to be said, especially for all the squeeing J/E fangurls who would accuse me of merely being a poor sport.

It's NOT about the Jack/Will. It's really not. I know - and 99.9 percent of Turrow (and Sparrington, and Willington) fans are sane and realistic about commerce and public taste, and were prepared and perfectly glad to accept Will and Elizabeth ending up together, Jack and James not ending up together. It's just what was supposed to happen by the dynamic of the first story setup, even despite all the slashy subtext. Hell, that was just subversive fun. *G*

This whole kink with Jack/Elizabeth, though ... it smacks to me of a need for SOME sort of hetero sexual pairing, no matter how ill-conceived, to create tension. Whereas I think a much BETTER tension-ratcheter, something that COULD be done within canon, would be Elizabeth versus Jack over Will - in the sense that Jack is trying to lure Will to a (non-slash) life at sea, freedom, and the like, and Elizabeth is trying to hang on to him to stay in her world, either on land or at least with her at sea. Jack could offer Will a wider range of travel, excitement, experience, connection with his long-lost father, etc.; Elizabeth could offer him companionship, sex, possibly children, financing for their travels, etc.

I mean, jeez.
ext_14908: (the ambiguously gay pirate movie)

[identity profile] venusinchains.livejournal.com 2006-05-02 12:21 am (UTC)(link)
I've been doing my best to avoid written spoilers, but I did slip up and read the bit involving the scene that's upsetting you. Your first poster here gave you most of the details of that spoiler, and someone else gave a good description of how I feel about the Jack/Elizabeth/Will dynamic so far (the whole Peas In A Pod bit).

All I can think to add is that I'm still feeling excited about this movie. I've always felt that, for various reasons, all three leads can easily be seen as grey characters (Jack and Elizabeth for their opportunism and all that that entails, and Will for his anger, which, with the right incentive, could easily lead him into a darker place). I'm especially interested to see how Norrington fits in with this "threesome," as it sounds like he's going to have a much larger role. I've always been a J/W fan myself, but I adore all the other characters and would love to see more involvement from any of them. I must go watch that trailer again. :-)

(I really need a new PotC icon. Has anyone capped that trailer yet?)

[identity profile] veronica-rich.livejournal.com 2006-05-02 01:04 am (UTC)(link)
I have no problem with experimenting with the characters - WITHIN CHARACTER. My big thing is I just don't see Jack as falling all over himself with Elizabeth and being stupid for her time and time and time again. He's not that simplistic or easily-led. I would say that whether it were Elizabeth, Anamaria, Will, or anyone else trying to seduce him - he's the seducer, NOT the seduced (and certainly not by the least compatible person for him in the entire cast of characters).

But otherwise, yeah, I'll go at least once and see what's become of all of them. *G*

I don't know if the trailer's been capped - you might check out the LJ of [livejournal.com profile] leggyslove because she usually has links to such things if it has been.

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