The week o' fandom continues ...

[veronica_rich]

In one of my previous non-real-life entries on the POTC sequel, stickfigurepeep made a couple of points about Elizabeth in the sequel that made me think about her character some more.


stickfigurepeep wrote: I can see her eventually (a long time after the films, mind you) becoming a sort of female version of Jack.

The problem is, Elizabeth wants to be that NOW and she's acting accordingly in all respects. She's not taking into account that Jack has been at this far longer than her and is better at it, so she's getting in over her head with the seduction stuff. She's also not taking into account that Will is a literal person who would probably not take his fiancee rubbing up against other men lightly, AND that she's doing all her come-hither up on deck in front of Jack's crew, some of whom know Will - what are the chances nobody would ever say anything to Will about her trying to jump all over their captain? Most are not going to understand it's only a tactic, not from a distance. She'd be far better off to treat Jack's come-ons with a sort of humorous forebearance and force him to negotiate as he would with any man, instead. It's that she reverts to sex as a weapon in just about every dealing of hers with Jack in this movie - and they didn't have that relationship in the first movie. See, THAT is what bothers me. She and Jack already understand each other, so why is she doing this? Does she really think even if he were to go as far as having sex with her, it would result in her getting what she's after? I previously gave her credit for not being that naive. (I firmly believe he allowed her to shackle him in the end because he was going to stay on Pearl ANYWAY and it was the fastest way to get her off the ship with everyone else.)

stickfigurepeep also wrote: (I've also been trying very hard lately to put aside my instant bias against female characters that get in the way of otherwise perfect slash pairings.)

I know this feeling. Being a woman myself, I try extra hard to find the positive in female characters, especially if they irk me, because I know it's necessary to keep improving their standing in cinema. Mostly, I like Elizabeth - but on her own. I like when she's fighting or disguising herself, or having to use her mind to do things (such as the ghost-dress and fuel to spell out "tortuga" on the ship deck). I even wrote a J/W series in which she had a pretty good role in helping them escape a couple of bad situations, AND I gave her a position in the world of some male power (probably anachronistic, at any rate).

It's when she's doing those old, tired "girl things" that she's annoying - and honestly, if a man were doing them, it would be annoying, too. Now I'll grant that her fainting during Jack's hanging was well-timed, necessary, and the only thing she had at her disposal at short notice; I'll even give her promising to marry Norrington to go save Will as a credit, because AGAIN, it was the only thing that would have worked at that moment. But throwing rocks and having a temper tantrum and pouting on the beach while the men fought was just childish - I saw it as less about getting their attention to solve the problem, than getting all their attentions fixated back on HER as the center of their respective universes. (And it's not like Will relegated her to an unimportant role; he asked her to guard the chest, which turned out to be a VERY important plot point, since if she'd actually done it, would've been hard to do against Jones's crew. We also see later that he trusts her enough to give her the gun to shoot past HIM to ignite the barrels of gunpowder on the Pearl.)

In fact - speaking of Will, the more I think about it, the more pissed I get at her for doing something that had a good chance of getting back to him as her being unfaithful to him. As someone else (I think it was Haleth) wrote about her being all hot for Jack on another thread I read a few days ago, "if she's so wet for a pirate, why not Will? He's doing a pretty good job kicking ass in this movie." I mean, the man fucking TRUSTS her to shoot a gun, he taught her to use a sword, and he never tries to put her in a box or treat her like a china doll - what straight woman among us WOULDN'T want someone who would treat us like an equal and still think of us as a lady?? Unless she just *likes* the head games Jack plays with her, and his ever-changing sense of loyalty ... I mean, what the fuck?

*ahem* Okay, I've gotten carried away. But the fact remains, I like Elizabeth enough that I think, frankly, that she should not end up with ANY man at the end of the third movie. If this whole story is about HER journey - as the writers seem hellbent on making it - then it needs to remain HER journey for a while. They need to show that she can pick a path and go with it on her own, without a husband, without a boyfriend, without a sugar daddy; otherwise, she's just another Disney princess saved from a humdrum life by a dashing hero (or anti-hero, as the case may be).

Comments

[vejiicakes.livejournal.com]

Would the lady like a slice of WORD PIE?

Actually, no, take it. Take the whole thing. It's yours. *pushes delicious pie across the Internets toward lj user="veronica_rich">*

[vejiicakes.livejournal.com]

HAHAHA MY CODING SUCKS whatever I'm leaving it like that.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Despite all, DMC is a thing of beauty. It gets people to go, talk, get pissed off, talk, plot, scheme, and think.

[philosophercat.livejournal.com]

...*hides plotting notes*

[heartofslash.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that was me. And I say Will's far more attractive than Jack in this movie. Jack was a drunken arsehole in DMC. Will brought teh sex.

But I stil want to see him with Jack.

Elizabeth should be the captain. Will and Jack should be shacked up on a deserted island.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

You may have a good point there. I think Elizabeth would be happiest in charge of something, anything she couldn't normally have.

[heartofslash.livejournal.com]

Elizabeth should be the governor, Norrington should be the commodore (but with his scruffy beard intact so he'll get laid all the time), the governor should join the crew of the Black Pearl and be Gibbs' love slave, Will should be allowed to be as noble and daring and deadsexy as he wants, with whomever he likes, and Jack can get the Pearl back.

Problems solved. No need for third movie.

Except for the Chow Yun-Fat. I want me some piratical Chow Yun-Fat. *prrrowr*

[venusinchains.livejournal.com]

I still love the Elizabeth character. I love that she's gotten a bit darker, more like the pirates she admires. It kinda makes sense that Jack would bring about all those changes, though it is too bad she was so susceptible to Jack's advances, considering her relationship with Will - ah, the weak willed, fickle female. *rolls eyes* (But, I don't think I was as dead set against the love triangle idea as you were.) As it is, the only person who obviously thinks that Jack and Liz might be gettin' it on is Will (if Gibbs and the rest of the crew think so, it's not been made obvious, and Norrington thought there was an attraction, but he didn't see any kissing).

With that in mind...

In the last scene (after my second viewing of the movie), I noticed that Will seemed moved by Elizabeth's agitation over the loss of Jack; I think he proposed finding a way to get Jack back to lift her spirits (thinking, maybe, that she was madly in love with Jack, and, still being madly in love with her, he was hoping to get her whatever - or whoever - she wanted to make her happy). Poor Will.

So, by holding his heart, Elizabeth is holding Will's reins. It seems parallel to Davey Jones' situation, don't you think? In that way she is controlling the situation in a very traditionally "female" way.

I wonder how this will be resolved - how she'll reveal her betrayal of Jack to Will and how that will affect his view of her. I've been imagining that Will might become something like Davey Jones (because of the supernatural bent of the movies so far - and the fact that I'm an insufferable romantic). I'm really not sure where that would leave Liz and Jack. The traditional "female" ending for her would be her transformation into a force of nature. Jack, as a trickster, would probably still be the go between that keeps them in touch, but apart.

Eek! I feel like I'm making an argument for Jack/Elizabeth/Will.

(Yes, it's very early. I need sleep. My reasoning skills are not at their sharpest. :p )

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I sort of had the same thought last night, that maybe Davy Jones isn't a person so much as an *office* (rather like the Piers Anthony "Incarnations" series), and that it can be filled by a new person every so often as needed. Maybe the transfer happens when someone stabs the previous Davy's heart, that person takes over the captaincy of the Dutchman. I don't like thinking of this happening to Will, but you're not the first to bring it up, at least ...

I'm not a big sexual triangle person. I like my pairs, provincial that I am. *G*

[venusinchains.livejournal.com]

I hadn't thought of it that way - though it makes sense. It also brings to (my warped) mind "Dread Pirate Roberts." :D

~~

Pairs are more intimate. I really need to be analyzing DMC from a J/W perspective - I just can't help projecting how the third movie will play out (and unfortunately slash won't be on that agenda).

[queenoftheeggs.livejournal.com]

Your icon makes me smile. ^_^

[sinister-beauty.livejournal.com]

Ah, but if Will becomes captain of the Dutchman, wouldn't he then have the authority to set everyone captive there free?

However, I do not want to see crabcake!Will. I mean, a barnacle here, a starfish there,I can deal with. But as a point of necessity, Will needs to still bring teh sexy.

[elibad.livejournal.com]

It begs the question, if Will became so cursed, would he become evil? Or would he still be Will?

I think Davy Jones chose the curse, possibly for revenge, and that he already had the inherent nasty disposition that Will lacks. Which probably means that Will would just not be that interesting as a seafood buffet style demon. He'd most likely, as mentioned above, free all the other poor, cursed souls, then find away to destroy himself and his currently damned 'office'

There is the possibility that they are setting Will up as the Anti-Davy Jones, that is, a man (possibly) heart broken, that chooses to not destroy himself and others. I have to admit that I just don't see the loss of Elizabeth (if it happens) sending him off the deep end.

On a semi-related note, I find it interesting that in a number of J/E fanfic, Elizabeth leaves Will because he's boring, passionless or just to damn reasonable and responsible. But her loss almost always drives him either mad, into an insane revenge plot or into massive depression and/or suicide.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Good lord, I knew there was a reason I didn't read J/E! (Other than simply not liking it, not seeing the chemistry proper for it.) Shoot, when I write J/W, I try to provide Elizabeth with a whole other path; most times, either she and Will never got together, or they decided it was best to part ways and she did her thing and he did his. Almost sounds like these people want to punish Will for being the narc who brings down all the "fun people" in the movies.

[elibad.livejournal.com]

I don't usually read it either. I loved me some DMC, and has almost no issue with the characterizations, beyond a few "Huh, Jack's being kind of an ass. Ah well, Pirate!" moments. With the very noticeable exception of Elizabeth, I found her story arc and characterization to be so jarring, weird and almost random, its like a desperate bid for understanding.

I KNOW there is well written, intelligent J/E fiction out there, but after the dreck I've read... its like getting really drunk on cheap booze, you just don't have the stomach to try it again.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I've read some OT3 and OT4 that was actually pretty good - it had a context for it and a place for Will, though, and I think that's necessary. (When I write J/W, I have to make a place for Elizabeth - not with the boys, but to explain where she is, what she's doing for herself.)

Is this just the latest stuff that's being posted, or more of what's been put up before?

[elibad.livejournal.com]

Just more of the same. I find the vilification of Will strangely fascinating. I mean, in the world of J/W, there is very little anti-Elizabeth sentiment, but with J/E, it sometimes seems like a big part of the draw is taking a whack at Will.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Actually, I have found quite a bit anti-Elizabeth sentiment in Turrowfic, but I think it was restricted mostly to the beginning of POTC fandom. What I figure is that at first, people felt like they had to shove her out of the way in order for J/W to work, but later on, they realized she was a character who could stand on her own apart from them. Hopefully this is just a temporary phase in the J/E splinter group. (Then again, maybe J/E is so inherently contrived that in order to put them together, SOMETHING has to be done with Will to make him look like a right bastard.)

[venusinchains.livejournal.com]

"There is the possibility that they are setting Will up as the Anti-Davy Jones"

The writers have said that they intend to wrap up the series in a way that wouldn't easily allow for more movies (I don't remember exactly how they worded it), this could be a part of that. I can easily see Will roaming the oceans mysteriously saving people, rather than cursing them.

~~~

"loss almost always drives him either mad, into an insane revenge plot or into massive depression and/or suicide"

Poor Will. He can't catch a break - in the movies or the fanfic. :p

And I don't care for it when a character is destroyed (in fanfic) to enable a "ship." I'd much rather the character simply not be mentioned, or have his/her fate left to the reader's imagination. (And if they can find a canon or canon-adjacent reason for it all... *thumbs up* )

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

And I don't care for it when a character is destroyed (in fanfic) to enable a "ship."

Especially a forced, poorly-conceived 'ship. (Yeah, it's my journal, I can rag on J/E all I like.) I tell you what, if they DO destroy Will for that reason, I can guarantee they'll get money from me for ONE movie ticket and nothing more.

[venusinchains.livejournal.com]

If they do turn Will into some kind of mythical creature in #3, I doubt it would be to enable a Jack/Elizabeth finale. I don't think anyone (involved in the movies) sees Jack settling down with anybody ('cept maybe the Pearl). That might be why Johnny keeps saying that he'd be willing to continue with a #4, while the writers feel they're closing up the "Pirates" universe with #3; maybe the only characters "finalized" are Will and Elizabeth (though I still can't imagine what they'd have in mind - specifically - for Elizabeth, if they do turn Will into a "Davey Jones" type character.

[venusinchains.livejournal.com]

"wouldn't he then have the authority to set everyone captive there free?"

As self-sacrificing as he seems to be, that gives him a reason to willingly take the post. (He really is too good to be true.)

"crabcake!Will"

Mwahahaha! Erm... I agree.

[elerrina-amanya.livejournal.com]

I have been sitting looking at your icon for about five minutes, off and on, just grinning away to myself. It is the best ;)
Like what you're saying in the second-to-last paragraph. Bad Elizabeth.

[nessataleweaver.livejournal.com]

Note: I'm a total Will/Elizabeth, Jack/the Pearl shipper, but I have tolerance for all 'shippers to 'ship as they choose.

this was originally a reply to a comment above, but I got a little carried away. *g*

I see what you mean about Elizabeth risking a lot by responding (or pretending to) to jack's advances - I, too, would far rather have Will than Jack, for reasons detailed below. However? I think she's trying to lead him out on a limb of sorts, because she's royally pissed at him for leaving Will on the Dutchman - don't forget, if not for Governor Swann's getting her out of jail, she'd be facing the gallows when Beckett got tired of waiting for Will to come back with the compass. And I don't think he'd hesitate to do it for a second.

One of my main objections to J/E (besides that they're too much alike, and that Elizabeth is in love with Will) is that I really don't think that Jack's capable of committing to anyone but the Pearl. I don't see why Elizabeth would give way to jack's come-ons (but he did do it all in public, didn't he? Hmmm...) when she knows perfectly well that Jack would bed her and forget her before the sheets were cold. She's bound to have had enough experience with that already (see below)

The thing about using sexual manipulation? You have to remember, that until very recently (I'd say it's been about a year since CotBP) that manipulation was the *only * weapon that Elizabeth possessed. Given that she's a noblewoman in an English colony... anyone read Regency romances? Since most nobles didn't have the responsibility of earning a living, they spent a lot of time with power- and mind-games of oneupmanship - and seducing a man's wife, or even a daughter before they were safely married, won major points. (if you've seen Dangerous Liasions, or even Cruel Intentions, the character portrayals weren't too exaggerated). Not to mention, the main way for a broke noble to get money was to marry an heiress. And when you add in how far away from England and Society's condemnation the colonials were, that makes the infighting even more vicious. As the Governor's daughter, complete with large dowry, Elizabeth was probably the biggest target. So when you look at it that way, Elizabeth's been the prime chunk of meat in a school of sharks for several years now. Learning to use her femininity as a weapon was a prime survival skill - and probably the only reason she stayed single long enough for Will to declare himself in the first place!

That's another reason I have doubts about the J/E thing - Elizabeth has really and truly fought to marry Will. Not just her father - because I really don't think Weatherby's 'is this the path you've chosen' comment was the end of it - to the fact that almost everyone in her social circle would have taunted and condemned her for marrying not only a commoner, but a tradesman! It took Elizabeth a great deal of effort to get to the altar, not matter how willing her groom was.

I gotta say - I think part of those comments Jack was making about performing marriages, are going to lead to him performing Will an Elizabeth's wedding ceremony on the deck of the Pearl, at the end of PotC 3. That would suit those two down to the ground, I think! (Elizabeth would do it just to get out of wearing a corset!)

Which brings up another point - Jack originally traded his soul to raise the Black Pearl from the depths, correct? Which not only makes me sure the lovely Pearl will be resurrected in top condition at some point in 3, but begs the question - how did it get sunk in the first place?

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Which brings up another point - Jack originally traded his soul to raise the Black Pearl from the depths, correct? Which not only makes me sure the lovely Pearl will be resurrected in top condition at some point in 3, but begs the question - how did it get sunk in the first place?

Well, for more on that, you need to read my most recent LJ entry. *G*

Those are good points about Elizabeth only having flirting available to her, as any woman. But, I would point out (and I think I did above, too) that she also know how to handle weapons, and those are effective tools on pirates; plus, you'd think Jack would figure she meant business (being HER) if she had actually drawn a blade or a gun on him. In fact, SHE would probably sooner use hers on him than Will would.