More fandom wank

[veronica_rich]

Actually, there's no real wanking; I just like the sound of the word.

I have more fandom-related thoughts on the whole DMC thing. (I have nothing at the moment on actual news in the world. There really IS too much wank on that front to make sense of it at this point - suffice to say the day the U.S. can successfully tell China what to do is the day more stuff in our homes will have "Made in USA" stamped on the bottom.)


I'm sure someone else somewhere has brought up these two points. But I haven't read them, so I'm going to make them as my own, since I came up with them on my own.

First, I can honestly say I've now squared with the J/E thing in DMC. It was one of those odd, random thoughts you have in the shower somewhere between putting the shampoo in your hand and putting your hands in your hair.

I just had to remember that Jack is not so obvious about what he wants.

Let me repeat that: Jack is not so obvious about what he wants.

Granted, we see nothing going on belowdecks involving Jack and Elizabeth. But we know the place exists, and there's no reason NOT to have a scene belowdecks if that's where it belongs, so we have to assume what happens up on deck out in the open happens there for a reason. Pay attention to how Jack's responses to and seductions of Elizabeth are all up on deck, in the middle of the day, with the crew present.

Part of what I always liked about the J/W dynamic is how Jack wasn't terribly obvious about it. He never is terribly obvious about what he really wants - when searching for the Pearl, he kept his own counsel about *why* he wanted her. As Gibbs told Will, "Jack plays things close to the vest now, and a hard-learned lesson it was." When explaining first to Will, then to Elizabeth, that he wants Davy Jones's key, he says nothing about WHY he needs it, nor does he say just how desperately it's needed - until forced by Will's hand on the beach (and even then, he's still not forthcoming as to the full WHY of it). Why would a man who does such things be so OBVIOUS in public about a woman he truly loves and wants, when he wouldn't even do it for his ship?

A man *would*, however, have no problem publicly swaggering around an attractive female he hopes to bed, which would enhance his reputation. That's something you can see in any bar you walk into, frankly.

Second, while Jack may be a world-class pirate, he's really not a very good captain at all. He knows how to operate a ship; he can probably even teach a new swabbie his skills, one-on-one, learning to get around one. But leading quantities of people on a daily basis doesn't seem his forte. In modern parlance, he's neither an employee nor a manager, but rather, an independent contractor who occasionally has to make use of casual labor to finish his jobs.

I don't think it's that Jack is incapable of being a good manager. I think he doesn't *want* to do it, and that forced to do it for any length of time is boring and taxing and too much like responsible employment ("Somehow, I doubt Jack will find employment the same thing as freedom" - couldn't have put it better myself, young Will). Yes, he wants his ship, but I think he realizes having a crew to run it is more necessary than desirable - if Jack could find a way to be alone on his ship with his rum, Gibbs, a woman now and again, *coughWillcough*, and invisible hands to pull at the oars, he'd be a blissful little pirate.

Comments

[shebit.livejournal.com]

It amuses me that you see Gibbs joining Jack in his little fantasy world of a crewless piratical life. I'm not sure why it amuses me, but it does. Maybe Gibbs is the sensible father figure that Jack needs, stearing him clear of the dangers he might otherwise walk into. In so much as an old drunken sailor could be a father figure to anyone.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

It amuses me that you see Gibbs joining Jack in his little fantasy world of a crewless piratical life.

It amuses me, too. Unfortunately, I suspect Jack would've ended up on the end of a noose or a skewer by this point, had Gibbs not been around occasionally to verbally steer him elsewhere on occasion. (Jack is brilliant, but not often terribly bright ...)

[shebit.livejournal.com]

Are you suggesting that Jack is the ultimate himbo pirate? Pretty, but slightly stupid?

It's a sorry state of affairs when the only thing that can save you from the noose is a blacksmith dressed as D'Artagnan.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Are you suggesting that Jack is the ultimate himbo pirate? Pretty, but slightly stupid?

Remember, you said it, I didn't. :-P

My sister just snorted soda through her nose. She said last night (before you ever posted this): "You know when you were in school and a new special-needs kid would be transferred in? And how the principal would assign one of the bright kids to sort of look out for him, show him around, and sometimes those two would just become friends anyway? Yeah, that's sort of like Jack and Gibbs."

[shebit.livejournal.com]

Awww, poor Jack.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I know - but it's hardly deniable, is it? (Come to think of it, that entire ship is staffed with the same kind of person as Jack ... Gibbs is pretty much in charge on his own, except when Will's occasionally around to help ...)

[gloromeien.livejournal.com]

I've had a shower thought as well... what's the easiest way to get Will to forget about the girl he thinks he loves and clear off into the availability of true singledom? Discredit Elizabeth!

Because, considering the ending, Will obviously doesn't consider that kiss Jack's fault. He's still prepared to try and rescue Jack. And, besides, he knows only too well that Jack is opportunistic in that way, that he will pretty much do anything. Also, he may believe that Jack is totally unaware of whatever feelings he may have brewing towards him.

Jack, as you point out, never really has a very direct way of going about things. He's more of an abstract thinker, with very complex plans, but definitely aware of the big picture at all times. The reason I think he's secretive is that he wants people to have true reactions, so that it's easier for him to manipulate the expected consequences into the right conclusion for all.

So, he certainly wouldn't be above a little provocation of Elizabeth, using himself and his piracy as bait, in order to snare Will in the long run.

Cheers, dear,

-G. ;)

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

You are devious and I like the way your brain works. Carry on, then.

[philosophercat.livejournal.com]

And how do you read the 'It never would have worked between us, darling?' line, just out of curiosity?

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Jack's making a grand escape from a military fort, and there's roughly 158,235 men standing around with one good-looking young woman in the middle. What's a better exit line for a legend? "Goodbye"? "Good luck"? "Thanks for all the fish"? *G*

I don't at all believe it was sincere - at least not in the sense of it being a serious regret (I don't doubt for a minute if she wanted to crawl into his bunk for an hour that he'd turn her away). His expression is not exactly one of serious pain or introspection.

[chibikat-wtf.livejournal.com]

Yeah, Jack's just being silly, tongue-in-cheek, and clever.

Although, if his parting line was "So long, and thanks for all the fish!", I think I would've been happy. XD The man must spend a lot of time with dolphins, at any rate.

[queenoftheeggs.livejournal.com]

Oh! May I add my two cents to that?

I always thought Jack was protecting his huge ego by saying that line. Instead of giving Elizabeth the chance to reject him and make him look foolish, he makes himself look like the man who has to beat off women right and left.

He wants to look like a ladies man whom nobody can resist (I know I can't!)

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I don't doubt for a minute if she wanted to crawl into his bunk for an hour that he'd turn her away

Er, not sure that came out right. I doubt he WOULD turn her away if she wanted to take a tumble with him, is what I meant to say.

[philosophercat.livejournal.com]

I made the adjustment ;) But I think he would turn her away is this girl was the fiancee of someone close to him, a girl this someone close to him was prepared to die for. He wouldn't hurt Will, unless there was something more important at stake. Or, and I tried explaining this to metalkatt last night, Jack is seeing if Elizabeth is really worthy of will. A la Becky Sharp seducing George Osborne so that she can let Amelia Sedley know her husband was a loser, and she's free to love Will Dobbin. It's painful but its an act of compassion (as Bootstrap says about the flogging).

I think its abundantly clear that what she loves in Will is the pirate mystique. It bothers me that those two are going to get married (I'm almost certain of this *sigh*) In a perfect world, Jack would take Will aside and tell him she's not good enough. Will wouldn't believe him, so Jack would have to tell him that she came on to him to reals.

[chibikat-wtf.livejournal.com]

Wow. Now I know what that niggling feeling was when Jack was being all smarmy-horny with Elizabeth - Jack just...wouldn't do that if he really, truly wanted them as his own.

Interesting.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

That's sort of how I felt. What guy wants to be shot down seriously in front of his subordinates?

[pir8fancier.livejournal.com]

Yes, he wants his ship, but I think he realizes having a crew to run it is more necessary than desirable - if Jack could find a way to be alone on his ship with his rum, Gibbs, a woman now and again, *coughWillcough*, and invisible hands to pull at the oars, he'd be a blissful little pirate

Agree with you. I see him as a confirmed loner.

[abrabacon-trask.livejournal.com]

Agree with you. I see him as a confirmed loner

I prefer this characterization too, and I think it is the most logical read on the Captain. What I'm worried about is that, in light of Elizabeth's oh-so-goddammned confident interpretation of Jack's "inner hero", what we'll get in part 3 is some ridiculous, treacly, "he wants to straighten up and fly right!" completion of his character arc, and what a shame that would be. Pun intended there. Feel free to talk me out of this, friends! (Am I too obviously begging?)

[pir8fancier.livejournal.com]

What I'm worried about is that, in light of Elizabeth's oh-so-goddammned confident interpretation of Jack's "inner hero", what we'll get in part 3 is some ridiculous, treacly, "he wants to straighten up and fly right!" completion of his character arc,

Please don't go there!

[abrabacon-trask.livejournal.com]

So sorry - promise it won't happen again :)

[heartofslash.livejournal.com]

All good points. Now I'm wanting Jack to get saved, get some sort of ship, preferably the Pearl, and be left all by his onesie like he wants to be. Or maybe with Will, when he realises what a horrid girl Elizabeth really is. Hee.

[chibikat-wtf.livejournal.com]

Now that last bit is a situation I'd happily raise a bottle of rum to. *clink!*

[heartofslash.livejournal.com]

So would Will, if he could get the stick out of his arse long enough to down some grog and let Jack in.

[queenoftheeggs.livejournal.com]

During the whole movie I was thinking that Jack wasn't a very good captain. In fact, I see WILL as being a much better captain. He can organize people better. He can get the crew to listen. he comes up with ideas that can save and help everyone. And he is always willing to fight for those he is responsible for/loves. While Jack eventually is willing to go down with his ship (with a little er...help...from Elizabeth) Will has had this type of noble behavior that should be consistent with a captain.

There are many times when I wish this wasn't a Disney movie. So much Jack/Will potential, but in the Disney dynamic, everything is hetero. Dammit!

But that's what gifted fanfic writers are for, no?

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

The only issue I took with Will is, "What've you been doing for the last year, boy? Running the fort in Norrington's absence?" LOL

[philosophercat.livejournal.com]

LOL exactly!

[immoral.livejournal.com]

Just passing through.

It's been a long time since I sat through the CotBP commentary reel with Gore and Depp, but I'm fairly sure they mentioned the entire pitch of Jack's character bloomed from the notion that he was the laziest pirate in the Caribbean.

The bulk of Jack's actions towards Elizabeth [whether in CotBP or DMC] can be summed up simply. Jack gets jollies from adding more myth and legend to the fame of his name. As the modern day equivalent of a rock star, there's no such thing as bad publicity. The only thing a narcissist loves more than attention is themselves.

Still, I rather think Disney was trying to het-Jack-up, as in the aforementioned reel Disney claimed they could roast weenies over Sparrow's homosexuality [so much pun intended].

[hendercats.livejournal.com]

In all the explosion of fic and meta and questions about and because of DMC, I managed to miss this and was pointed here by tessabeth's recent post.

First, thank you for this:
Let me repeat that: Jack is not so obvious about what he wants.
because I just have been unable to swallow the explanations (several of them apparently originating with the writers) about Jack's attraction to Elizabeth. She's (a)there, (b) attractive, and, according to this universe's pirate credo, "take what you can, give nothing back," (c) available, so why wouldn't Jack be trying to get in her anachronistic knickers? But Elizabeth filling his brain to the detriment of self-preservation? No. Emphatically no.

I think your comparison of Jack to a consultant rather than a manager has a lot of merit. Perhaps those ten years have something to do with that, since he was probably operating on his own, in one way or another, quite a bit. What we see most often is key individuals responding to Jack rather than large masses of people.

Thank goodness for all the intelligent discussion in this fandom. Interpretations offered by various individuals have made me so much happier with DMC.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

As it's written and from what I've read of the writers, I have no doubt Ted and Terry intend for Jack to be hot and bothered and flustered to the point of his own detriment by Elizabeth. They're clearly in love with both her and their lead actress, and I do not doubt that they intend for every male character in this series to be either openly or secretly in love with her, as well. *G*

That said, THANK GOD FOR JOHNNY DEPP. His acting skills are almost enough to overcome the underlying sap of the script's aim of making Jack look like a fool for and victim of "love." In addition, on paper, this Jack looks like a completely ruthless amoral son of a bitch with no regard for anyone's life but his own. Again, I appreciate the amount of heavy lifting Depp had to do to transform it into something sympathetic onscreen.

[(Anonymous)]

I think that's the really gorgeous thing about Jack, though--the writers' Jack and Depp's Jack--does he want Elizabeth? wait, is he baiting her to break her and Will up and take his opportunity with the latter? wait, did he really intend to betray Will to a lifetime of slavery and barnacles? wait, is he a completely ruthless amoral son of a bitch with no regard for anyone's life but his own? You just can't TELL. His behavior has proven consistently inconsistent, and the things he tries have effects at 90-degree angles from the original thrust. He plays billiards with life.

Young, innocent Will asks, in CotBP, if heatstroke is "the reason" for all that wobbly bad-boy swish and rumspice slurring, and Gibbs answers that reason's got nothing to do with it; but, really, the sway and the spinning is the only thing I can guarantee is coldly calculated: as Gibbs also says, Jack plays things closer to the vest now. Who the hell knows WHAT he's thinking?

And you're all right, I think: Captain Jack Sparrow is a lazy, opportunistic, brilliant (yet often dim) creature out to save his own skin, take what he can, and give nothing back. Would he do Elizabeth is given half the chance? Yeah, probably, if for nothing else but achieving (probably not for the first time) the trifecta of a) having someone ruined for all other men forever by the sheer blinding force of how good he is in bed; b) the obvious, you know, orgasm thing; and c) getting to see the pretty fireworks between her and her intended afterwards: God knows he says enough explosive stuff just to totally enrage people (as soon as they figure out what it means). And it's not like he's been proven exactly *picky* about his, ah, company. And if it drives Will and Elizabeth apart and Will wants a bit of revenge or a taste of what drove Elizabeth mad, well, then, so much the better.

But Elizabeth's possibly (*possibly*) very right to think that the driving force of most of Jack's decisions (right after the oh-so-immediate sense of self-preservation) is curiosity. You can count on a dishonest man to always be dishonest, you can count on an honest man to be generally honest with flashes of doing somethings incredibly stupid; but you can't count on a curious man for anything, and that's Jack to a T.

So we get to make it up. In a way, I think DMC affords every last fanficcer's mother's son (or daughter, as the case may be) an ENORMOUS opportunity to basically do whatever they want to with the characters. There is no way to tell what the hell's going on with any of the them, or how any of them will end up, or what fate any of them will choose, especially because we have no concrete evidence as to why they've done what they've done already. Why did Jack trick Will into paying his debt to Davy Jones? was he really all that wrong in saying that it would save Will's life? would he really have left him there forever? why, if he was so thrilled to have someone else pay his debt, did he try to talk Jones out of keeping him, TWICE? Why was he messing with Elizabeth? why was he messing with Elizabeth in full view of everyone on the crew? when Elizabeth messed back, was she teasing him, or teasing herself? does she want Jack, or does she want the selfish and utterly free life he represents? did she kiss him because she wanted to, or did she kiss him only to get him into that shackle?

The magic of Jack is that he might indeed be the aforementioned ruthless amoral son of a bitch, and he might be curious enough to try honor and see where it gets him (kissed and then dead, apparently), and he might be in love--with Will, with Elizabeth, with the *Black Pearl*, with freedom, with that horizon--but Jack's not going to tell us, and neither, suggests the end of the movie, is anyone else. Odd behavior and unjustifiable weirdness is not, in Jack Sparrow's case, necessarily a threat to a happy ending.

the Scarlet Pervygirl

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

You break my brain.

That's not necessarily a bad thing. It basically just means that I've thought of much of this, too, and have concluded, as you, that anyone can get anything they like out of all of this tentacled mess. Probably why the whole shit-and-shebang's made a couple billion dollars in B.O. and DVD sales worldwide.

As I've said, I don't begrudge the J/E 'shippers their stories and meta (although if I'm being brutally honest, I'd have to say it's my LEAST favorite pairing in POTC), nor anyone else. It just means I don't have to like it and, by what you say, I can plausibly explain, with examples, why I don't. ;-)