Entitled knobnuts, part #758

[veronica_rich]

Fandom!Secrets may have moved to DW, but it's just as much fun as ever to read for venting. *G*

A theme I see brought up time and again is entitlement in fandom. As in, "I'm entitled to get to read stories/see fanart of THIS" and "I'm entitled to have what I like be the dominant force in my fandom" and "I'm entitled to do some name-calling when people waste their time on fanworks of things I don't like instead of what I want to see." Pre-Internet, I honestly don't remember fans I knew and met being so judgmental of fanfic or art beyond the usual "is it good or not?" which is fair enough. What I mean, there was none of this "quit wasting your time on slash and build me a het epic, bitch" that's become a staple at FS (which, FS is a concentrated dose of general fandom, so my guess is this maybe goes on in some individual fandoms out there to a lesser degree; I saw just a tiny bit of it back in POTC). I'm not talking about people who simply express a desire to read something specific they would like - I mean those who tear down other people for writing other things that aren't what the bitchers want to read.

And it is all het, occasionally gen. Even the femslash fans, who might have a point about not seeing enough of what they like, aren't whiny and entitled like the het fans who make these secrets or agree with them. I remember just a few occasional threads in parts of POTC where J/E fans (it wasn't ever W/E or even Norribeth or other het fans doing it) would sit around publicly wondering why anyone would like slash in that fandom. Or the few who insinuated from time to time it was down to misogyny because we didn't write Liz as much as they did. But it didn't come up with near the frequency it does on FS, and every time I see it, I wonder, why don't those people write what they want to read?

Seriously. This is how fanfic STARTED long before the Internet and even paper 'zines. Fans wrote what they liked to see and kept them to read again. Or traded with fellow fans. Or copied and passed around. Hell, this was going on into the 90s. So the bitchers who counter with "but I'm not a writer!" - well, I have no sympathy. Non-writers and professional storytellers have been telling themselves stories to beat boredom and fall asleep for tens of thousands of years; if you're so damn lazy you're the type who'd rather publicly bash because you're not getting what you want from people doing it for free, you deserve to be mocked by all of us who do it at FS and anywhere else.

Comments

[pir8fancier.livejournal.com]

This is what I find disturbing. I would say that this trend started about six months ago and at LEAST once a week a new "secret" has some sort of slash-bashing post. Mind you, they don't say, hey, this fic is really lousy, badly written, just dreck. No. It's generally how reading about men having sexual relationships with each other is disgusting and taking over their fandom (which, hello, really?) and, perhaps, my favorite: How it isn't canon? Frankly, anytime you take a medium beyond what the original creators intended it is NOT canon, so that argument usually brings nothing but contemptible sniggering from me. You want canon? Reread or rewatch the source material and rinse and repeat. THAT'S canon, baby, and anytime you take it beyond that then you've marched firmly into non-canon territory. Can writers (even within their own canon) take things out of canon? Sure. That's called bad writing when a character doesn't adhere to an established arc or a plot veers off into some hare-brained direction that doesn't make sense. But basically, I think once you take source material and start tweaking it, then you are guilty of messing with canon to a certain degree. Which is why I think that argument is bullshit. How het characters would NEVER stoop to suck someone's dick. Really? How do you know?

Most of the time I think it's trolls just trying to get the slash writers to foam at the mouth. In fact, I would say the majority of fandomsecrets is troll generated, specifically designed to alienate groups of people. Seems like a strange way to get off, but it's obvious that a lot of the posts are purely incendiary in nature.

[johnnypenn.livejournal.com]

This is very interesting. When I see slash in fandom I always figured it was because there were more men than lady character's in the story. Or the fandom is rife with OC's and slash pairing's give a modicum of canon realism.

I read fandom secrets once or twice, I agree most of it is more trolling than whatever it was originally started for.

[pir8fancier.livejournal.com]

There is a most definite backlash against slash. I wish I had a dollar for the amount of WHINING I've read recently whereby all the really good writers only write slash and how readers can't find decent het stories. Or my other favorite, how they suffered under the dictatorship of BNFs who only wrote slash and now that the BNFs have moved on, the het contingent can dominate and return the axis to its rightful order (as in the case of mcshep dominating until the series went off the air and now the fandom is dominated by sheppard/teyla shippers).

POTC was, in the beginning, the most inclusive fandom imaginable. People were honestly (it seemed to me) not too arsed about the pairings one way or the other. Threesomes were very popular (given Johnny Depp's interpretation that pretty much anything sexual was a thumbs up). Slash was very active but not at the expense of het pairings. Little did I know that this was very unusual in a fandom. Of course, then all that changed when the second movie came out and the het contingent were determined to make the fandom a mono-ship fandom. When I complained that hte second movie didn't make sense (as in just linear plotwise issues), I was accused of being a bitter slasher because there wasn't any opportunity to slash the characters. A slash NEVER lacks for opportunity because the last time I looked, all the characters had moving sexual parts. That is ALL you need, IMO.

I think that essentially people perceive shipping as an entrance to a club. and if they don't "get" that pairing or it doesn't appeal to them, then they feel like there is no way they can join in the fun. I think the initial days of POTC were a condemnation of that concept just as much as the latter days of it were confirmation of that mind set.

[hippediva.livejournal.com]

Well, Pirategasm was all-inclusive when it started in 5/2003 and it still is! *wink* It's a lot quieter than it was, but it remains all-inclusive to this day.

But I do think you're right---the entitlement is appalling. I mean, I don't particularly care for most het but others do. Just like some folks love broccoli and others can't stand it. There is no unwritten law insisting that broccoli be eaten. *giggling at the idea of Jack forced to eat broccoli*

[pir8fancier.livejournal.com]

Pirategasm was/is *absolutely* indicative of how inclusive that fandom was. Seriously, maybe I was hopelessly naive at the time, but it seemed to me that POTC was basically people just writing fic about characters they loved and Pirategasm THE place where we could keep track of what we wrote and who wrote it. Of course it wasn't ALL sweetness and light--there was a vocal contingent of people who didn't get Sparrington--but I certainly never felt threatened when I wrote it. I just assumed that the people who didn't like it, didn't read it. And I didn't feel that the people who didn't read it didn't like me personally, which is how it seems to play out these days, or even worse, that what I write "sickens" people (a term that I have read used more than once to describe a reaction to slash pairings).

There will always be like minds grouping together within a fandom, but lately it seems that as fandom has become more public and more (ironically) accepted by mainstream media, it has become much more cannibalistic of its members. I question whether I would be in fandom today if I didn't have long roots. It's not as nice a place.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

lately it seems that as fandom has become more public and more (ironically) accepted by mainstream media, it has become much more cannibalistic of its members

It almost feels like some political plants from the Radical Reich being sent in to infiltrate and undercut anything not appropriately heteronormative for a good old-fashioned values apple-pie-and-baseball American picnic, yeehaw! What these fucknuts on the het side who go along with this bitching don't realize, if there ever comes a point that slash goes back into hiding (as it was for decades before the 2000s; even in the 90s, really), the Moral Majority frowning over m/m is going to turn its ponderous collective head to what is and isn't acceptable in het pairings next. Or so I wager. That's usually the way of things.

Oh well. If they want to write hand-holding and coquettish eye-batting and bear pressure against "vagina" being written in fanworks, I hope they have fun with that. Slash and any fanfic, really, will live on on the sidelines as it did for so long - and those of us who write it primarily for our own enjoyment won't lose nearly as much as those who do it solely for approval and inclusion. ;-)

[hippediva.livejournal.com]

Amen! Pope Sleazoid the First approves! *LOL*

[hippediva.livejournal.com]

You said a WHOLE mouthful there! Again, it's a small group of loudmouthed morons forcing their ideology on the larger group whether the masses want it or not. My only regret is that I got angry instead of simply tossing them all out on their ears the first time they stepped over the line of civility.

[johnnypenn.livejournal.com]

Plot issues are plot issues and have no bairing on what you ship! That's stupid.
I got onto the POTC wagon late in the game. Like right before the second movie came out. So I think I missed some of the wank or I just didn't go to the places where it was happening.

I've never seen BNF, But in the A-Team fandom Hannibal/Face is a very dominant pairing followed by BA/Murdock, and Face/Murdock and threesomes depending on who's writing what. And in Sherlock fandom Sherlock/John is a very dominant pairing. But I think that in all fandoms, like you said, slash can happen. It's just easier in some fandom's than in other's. And the same goes for Fem!slash. I am sure Sex in the City has pairings between the lady's of the series. I've never seen that show either. But, I think that's another fandom who has more lady character's than men and it'd be easy to put them into those situations.

So long story short; I think you're right and it was very interesting to read about your experience in POTC fandom.

[kronette.livejournal.com]

OOh, A-Team. I wrote Face/Murdock and didn't realize it wasn't the common pairing. It was all I happened to see online, though I realize there were zines out long before when I got online. I remember seeing some BA/Murdock, but I preferred F/M or F/H and there was plenty of it. If there was wank, I never saw it. That reminds me, I never did post that huge F/M story I had done... :)

Slash tends to be my default setting when writing stories, but part of it could be the predominance of men/male leads in TV and movies. It's easier to pair them because they're already in the 'buddy' stage and it's sometimes easier to take them the next step or two. I know in SPN, the shift (for me) away from Dean/Sam happened when Castiel showed up, then it was all Dean/Castiel for me. If I was to write het for the show, it would be Dean/Ellen most likely (the actress calls herself a MILF :)). I can't see myself reading or writing Castle fic, because the show writers are doing pretty well with the on-screen relationship and I don't feel the need to "fix" or "see" anything else. That's what tends to drive the relationship fanfic for me - a relationship that isn't happening, that I think should be happening. Of course, I wrote a Bashir/Garak/O'Brien love triangle just to piss off a few people :) There were some slash fans declaring that writer "couldn't" write a certain pairing, so I did it a few times just to prove them wrong and annoy the smeg out of them. Don't tell me what to write; I'm not holding a gun to anyone's head making you read it. That's what the delete (when stories used to be posted to Listservs and mailing lists) or subscribe to my feed or go to that section of the archive. Why do people go out of their way to make other people miserable? I'll never, ever understand that.

I do know it can be intimidating coming into an established fandom and seeing all the stories that were written ahead of you. It's overwhelming and you don't know if your little story idea will even be heard in the chaos. I ease myself into a fandom by reading & commenting on stories. Then I'll join a list or two to see what's going on/being talked about. Then, if an idea strikes me, I have at least made myself known before I post and wave my new story around, so I'll have people more receptive to reading it. One cannot (I assume) jump headfirst into a fandom, post 20 stories and have everyone love them and declare you the best thing since (insert BNF here).

And I agree; no matter the relationship, you're going to have the same issues crop up in terms of getting them together, circumstances that are keeping them apart, reactions to their getting together, etc. etc.

[johnnypenn.livejournal.com]

Post that A-Team story. The fandom is far too small. LOL. A-Team is that essential buddy show, even if in the original series BA says he doesn't like the other guys. There's only the four of them and they are on the run. There are eps that show they are interested in other women, mostly Face because he flirts with everything. But, it's so much easier just to pair them together. Sometimes the pairing goes against what is all ready established in fandom or there is so little of it there's no point. I wrote a fic for Nabari fandom. It's an anime about Ninja's but so much better done than Naruto. Anyway, the pairing I wrote is not a huge thing in fandom and the only fan fic I ever wrote for Nabari but that's fine with me. Sometimes you just got to get the story out there even if no one ever reads it.

I too am not interested in Castle fic. The writer's do a good job. It was cool of you to prove a pairing could happen though. That's just awesome. I agree with you that people are not allowed to tell other's what to write or what not to write. Censorship is not allowed in writing whatsoever.

i find it fun to write a pairing that'd probably never happen; because it's more challenging to get them together. And, as you said, every couple has challenges to their relationships. It's something all reader's can relate to.

[hippediva.livejournal.com]

Having been through the hideous POTC sparrabeth shipwar along with V, I think you are entirely right----the whole thing is a bunch of trolls seeking to ruin others' enjoyment for the sake of ruining it. If that is what is considered 'normal' to het fans, I hate to tell them that not only are they doin' it wrong, but they all need shrinks! LOL!

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Precisely. Canon is ANYTHING not specifically depicted by the author. If you write what you call a "canon-compliant" missing scene that's not in the book or movie that has the characters doing things we didn't read or see, you can call it whatever you like, but you cannot call it "canon" by any stretch of the imagination. Not unless the original creator is paying you or otherwise commissioning you to contribute to their canon by writing it.

Fandom used to be more live and let-live when it came to producing fanworks, though it certainly had problems - while you could write or draw whatever, there were "rules" that were dumb then and really look dumb now. Rules like, if you wrote anything slash, even just kissing or discussion of a same-sex relationship, it had to be rated NC-17 to protect children and squicked het/gen fans from the evil gay. (Whereas, there were levels of ratings for f/m relationships.) I'm not saying earlier fandom was wonderful, just that people seemed more concerned with finding stuff to read, or writing it themselves, than with bitching about what was already there that they didn't like.

[pir8fancier.livejournal.com]

Just as you pointed out, what IS different is this staggering sense of entitlement, . People are now expecting their itches to be scratched, as opposed to writing something that scratches their itches. Which would be okay if people were paying for this entertainment and then you were royally pissed off because it was so horrible (can anyone say Dead Man's Chest?). But no one is paying me to write my fanfiction dreck, and I find it laughable that so many people expect you to "perform." This is what the internet has brought us. Even people who aren't technically performing are seen as beholden to their readers. This is what I think is the genesis behind a lot of snarky, mean reviews. Rarely do I read a mean comment that actually addresses what might be wrong with a fic. No, it's usually couched in language that basically says, "Hey, you didn't write my characters the way I wanted them written." On these hate memes sites I always get a lot of grief because I tend to not write canon characters. Do I labor under the delusion that I write canon characters? Absolutely not! But it's a huge fault of mine. Apparently.

[johnnypenn.livejournal.com]

I have had this happen to me. I was writing a HP fan fic a while back and I put in some plot twist I thought was very clever and I got a review of someone saying that it was interesting up and until that point but that I ruined something canon wise or whatever and so that person wasn't going to read it anymore.

No skin off my nose; plenty of other people liked it. But yeah, the entitlement really makes writing a story far more stressful than it has to be because all of a sudden you've got people who expect things. And since I mostly write-and-post it's worse because the story isn't a finished thing, unlike a book.
I wish people could just sit back and enjoy or accept that different take a writer has going instead of getting all pissy because whatever they wanted to happen didn't.

I say those people need to go and write their own fan fic.