early POTC fandom

[veronica_rich]

So metalkatt, dahlianna, and I are watching CotBP (the first POTC movie) again. (Well, D is mostly watching "Supernatural" on her computer, but she's in the room.) And it started me remembering things in the very early fandom 8 years ago - things we now take for granted or are old hat, that were just getting started then.

For instance - does anyone else remember the little wordplays that resulted in phrases like "Dr. I Am Disinclined to Acquiesce to Your Request" (i.e., another name for the movie "Dr. No")? Or even where that list got off to? There were a bunch on it. What else do you extreme old-timers remember from the VERY early days of this fandom?

(Also, Jack looks much less stylized here; his outfit and look is more practical and "worn-in" and looks comfortable. In OST he's got more eyeliner and eyeshadow drawn on, his costume is more elaborate - it doesn't look like a costume here - and he looks more comfortable overall in this one. The costumes in this one seem more like clothes on everybody, too. Did Penny Rose just kind of give up?)

Comments

[pir8fancier.livejournal.com]

They got rid of this a few years ago, but in New Orleans Square in Disneyland they had this gallery where they sold prints, and they had a display of some of the costumes from the film. They didn't have Jack's costume but a couple of the bit players. And those costumes were so authentic looking. They must have thrown them in a tumbler with rocks because they were worn and torn in weird place. They were exceptionally cool.

[starrdust411.livejournal.com]

I believe at Hollywood Studios they have (or had) some of the costumes from the third movie. If I remember correctly it was Elizabeth's pirate king outfit and Sao Feng's costume. These costumes were placed among Vader's suit from the original Star Wars and the White Queen's battle outfit from the first Narnia movie and I feel like it shows how the series became more fantastical over time since the costumes didn't seem out of place among them. I don't know how historically accurate the costuming was, but it does feel like they started caring less about the period and more about coolness after a while.

[gobsmacked.livejournal.com]

The early stuff was pretty historically accurate, AFAICT.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I think that's the point - they were clothes, for the first one. Johnny came up with a look for Jack, Penny refined it with some colors and details, and voila! Frankly, Jack would have been better off to wear different outfits and have a slightly different look throughout the movies, like Will and Elizabeth and even Norrington - to an extent - did.

I think the clothes are concurrent with the tone of the series, to be honest. In addition to Jack's costume, you have Angelica dressed as RennFaire Pirate Wench - her outfit is not practical to her position. How did we go from Elizabeth in men's clothes, to an off-the-shoulder floofy blouse and corset for a woman who expects to be taken seriously by a shipful of men in 1740-whatever? Elizabeth in her "pirate" and "captain" outfits managed to look cute as well as practical, for the most part.

Here's the thing: Disney people have happily admitted Jack is not a character that learns and grows; he's static and unchanging in his motives. So why would you try to make that character the central character in a story? A cartoon, sure - a cartoon is 10-15 minutes long and has little to no depth. Because of the expectations set up by the first movie, I reasonably figure a POTC movie is going to give me more than a Bugs Bunny cartoon, don't you?

[pir8fancier.livejournal.com]

First of all, I basically think there isn't any logic to these movies, and we are continuously beating our heads against the walls trying to come up with one. The first movie was a fluke. I think Disney thought it would generate decent sales because Johnny's star was rising, Orlando's star was still burning bright from LOTR, and Keira was coming off of Bend It Like Beckham and could prove that she could hold her own on a screen. Plus, she was/is truly flat out gorgeous and probably Orlando Bloom is one of the few actors who can actually not look dowdy standing next to her. So I don't think Disney execs were paying too much attention to this little sleeper, which is why Penny could actually do period costumes (roughly, because who in the hell knows when this really took place) and play to her little heart's content. And Johnny could do the kohl thing and the gold teeth thing and grab the character of Jack Sparrow and make it his own.

And then it made a ton of money. The suits arrived in full force and even the small remnants of authenticity and rationality went out the window. Because there WAS a rationale that held together in the first movie, and held together pretty damn well. I think that the clothes because yet another victim of the stupid plot machinations. Remember that wedding dress thing? And, although you and I are mostly sympatico on most things POTC-ish, I thought dressing Elizabeth Swann up as some sort of Chinese ship captain was absolutely balderdash and not a little racist. And then we have Norrington restored to his naval dress blues just do they could kill him.

Yet clothes in this era were so important, and it seems like such a small thing to try to preserve that. There is a reason why sumptuary laws went in and out of vogue because they signaled your class; your place in the pecking order. That corset that Elizabeth wears during Norrington's proposal was beautifully symbolic. Just as symbolic as Jack saving her from the water (HIS territory) and then cutting her out of it. And lest you think I'm treading into sparrabeth territory, it's just as symbolic as Will getting struck by the ship's boom. This is Jack's territory where the old rules don't apply, so be fast on your feet. And it's the ONLY territory where a blacksmith and a governor's daughter can even retain the remote possibility of getting married.

Because of the expectations set up by the first movie, I reasonably figure a POTC movie is going to give me more than a Bugs Bunny cartoon, don't you?

Well, I guess we were both naive. Again, haven't seen the fourth movie but Jack shouldn't be the center of any movie. Part of what makes Jack work is that he is the catalyst for all the other character's dilemmas. He's supporting character material. I think you start to introduce all kinds of problems by making him a central character primarily because he's the person who creates chaos and if you have a central character who creates chaos, then how does the movie center hold up?

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Oh, I don't disagree about the deal with Elizabeth in the Chinese garb. I was thinking more of the men's outfits she wore to Tortuga and then on the Pearl, as well as the outfit she was wearing at the beginning of AWE - they were all practical, fairly plain materials, but she looked both cute (to me) and protected in them. (And I was thinking of her in the black Chinese garb as the appointed captain of the Chinese junk - which as you say may be racist, but it also looked like something a man would wear, and since she was the captain, at least it was also somewhat consistent with her role. Which, consistency is a little more than we got with Penelope's character and her outfits.)

[ellie-pierson.livejournal.com]

The one thing I always remember from the first movie is the first sword fight between Jack and Will. Jack taking the time to stroke the blade of his sword along Will's. The very first time I saw it I didn't think anything of it, but then after you put the slash glasses on, it is terribly suggestive.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Those are character details, not choreography - the sword sliding, etc. Rob Marshall does choreography. Yes, the first movies were choreographed too - you have to do that when there are sharp blades involved, or someone gets hurt - but even with the acrobatics in the rafters and such, I liked those scenes for the character development more than the modified dancing and stunts.

[keechakatt.livejournal.com]

I actually have pictures of those outfits, at least when I was there it was of Pintel and Ragehti. I also have a picture of the bone chair from DMC. That was pretty cool.

Does anyone know how to post pics in a comment?

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

You should upload the photos to some hosting service (such as Photobucket or some other). Photobucket, I know, has a feature that lets you copy the 'a href' code and copy it into a comment and it will post. Like such:

(http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v216/verthefirst/?action=view&current=s2qira.jpg)

[ericadawn16.livejournal.com]

Hehe, oh early fandom, those were the days...

Alas, I didn't find LJ until DMC but I was on FF.net so that was a lot of fun. Every third story was a Mary Sue that ended up with Jack Sparrow, but I remember before the dvd came out, quite a few people were insisting his first name was James and I was just like, HOW DO YOU KNOW? I MUST KNOW NOW!!!!!

Then, the dvd came out and all was explained...that was also like my fourth dvd ever.

Of course now, even DMC seems like early days, all the newbies don't know what we mean by Poochie or Boots of Sex or so many other things....

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Lots of fannish shortcuts that developed in this fandom!

[captsparrow4evr.livejournal.com]

Ah, the early days. In a way, I really miss those old fandom battles of Turrow (of course, it wasn't called that at that time) vs. Sparrington, how Will and Elizabeth were supposed to end up together so Jack when he said "I was rooting for you" was actually telling James Norrington he wanted him. Yahoo groups were all the rage at the time. Each pairing seemed to have its own group.

We were all so much younger then.:)

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

To be honest, before the whole J/E debacle, I never paid attention to 'ship arguments because none took over the whole fandom and they don't matter to me anyway. I've heard there were bad feelings that developed over the whole J/W vs. J/j thing, but I know nothing of it. (Although I do remember a discussion over the "rooting for you" thing.)

[alkja.livejournal.com]

Jack looks much less stylized here

Word. I'd say that back in the day, Jack was an actual character, while nowadays he's more a Trickster Archetype, a caricature of himself. I loved old Jack, but didn't feel much for OST!Jack.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

He's a character now, in the strictest sense of the word, instead of a fictional person. Gibbs is a character too, but you expect it of him, and he's not a primary character. The primary characters need to grow somewhat - they need to be fictional people the viewers can identify with or against.

[potboy.livejournal.com]

The naval uniforms in PotC #1 were a lot more authentic too (not right, but more so). Also I notice that they got the Union Flag right in #1 but wrong in #4. So I assume that they had different props people altogether this time around.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I bow to your expertise, since I know nothing about RN, but I can believe anyway that people just seemed to care more about the authenticity then. (They also wisely stuck to nonspecific details, such as not using a monarch's name or identifiable event aside from the location still being known as "Port Royal.")