I don't get this at all. What do people gain out of living in a country where not everyone has access to medical care? Why is that state of inequality and injustice something worth fighting for?
(disclaimer: I'm employed by of my state government and my salary is mostly funded with federal dollars.)
Also, one of the enduring American myths is rugged individualism (http://www.bartleby.com/59/14/ruggedindivi.html).
People who believe this fall into two camps:
If they're successful, they say, "I made it on my own, and everybody else could, too, if they just worked hard enough!" ignoring minor details like that they went to good schools (paid for by tax dollars), got federally-sponsored grants to pay for their college education (instead of having to rack up thousands of dollars in student loan debt), used their family connections to advance their career, etc.
If they're not successful, they say, "I work hard to feed my family and pay my bills. Why should those people (implied: who are too lazy to work) be given a free ride on my hard-earned money?" This sort prides themselves on never going on what used to be called food stamps (money in the form of vouchers that are only good for food) but has no qualms about taking unemployment insurance payments if they get laid off.
They're also the group most likely to be indignant when they get turned down for a government program (such as disability payments) and demand that whatever program they're applying to "give me back my money" purely on the basis that they paid into the system at some time in the past.*
This group, in essence, divides government spending into two categories: programs that they've paid into and thus have a right to get payments from if they ask and programs where you can get benefits without having to pay in first, like food stamps, which only the aforementioned "they" would take.
I've also seen this type complain indignantly about city, county, state, or federal employees spending "my money" (or "your money" if it's a political rally) on things they don't approve of--things like union dues, political donations (but only if it goes to someone they don't want to win the election), and comprehensive health insurance coverage.
I'm always tempted to ask them if, since they think they have the right to dictate how I spend my salary because they're paying for it, they'd be fine with their boss telling them what they spend their salary on. But I don't bother, because I know what their answer would be: "That's different! I work for my money!" (Yes that's a real quote.)
*They also, in my experience, have a highly-inflated idea of how much money they have in fact actually paid in.
I guess that to me it's just self evident that everyone would want to live in a country where nobody ran the risk of starving in the street or dying for lack of money to pay for medicine. I mean, stuff like that is what government is *for* - protecting the people who live in that country. And let's face it, rugged individualism is fine in a country where you can live off the land, but in this day and age we all depend entirely on the labour of others for all our needs.
I might also point out that in my experience, at least, the objections you refer to are often raised by people who have never been in a position of true financial desperation - where they were cut off from help by family, unable to get a job, and no or low savings all coalescing at the same time.
If that's in reply to my comment, and not Alex's, I agree, most of the people who hold this philosopy--especially the most rigorously idealistic ones--have never had to face the choice of living on the street and going to bed hungry every night or applying for government assistance.
Well, it was to her comment, because she doesn't live here. But anyone can read and reply. :-)
I'm sure somewhere there's someone who lived in desperation, who received assistance, who doesn't want others to have access to those resources. But I don't want to meet them.
But for the people I'm talking about (the unsuccessful ones) this is more like an article of faith than a rational, well-thought-out position. They sincerely believe the country would be better off with less government--possibly no government--than it has now. And at the same time, they'd probably be horrified if all the government-funded services in their communities disappeared. No police, no fire protection, no public libraries, no more carefully-maintained softball diamonds at public parks, no public schools, no state colleges, no street repair, no sewage treatment plants or water line maintenance, etc.
It's a particular form of selective vision combined with self-righteousness; a whole range of quietly useful government-provided services (see above) are conveniently ignored while they complain about the relatively small portion of the nation's tax dollars that go to programs they morally disapprove of.
What about those who shun social services and welfare, but are all for increased defense spending? If we don't have a healthy and educated populace, what the hell is there to defend?
My guess is that it must be a very attractive position for a lot of people, but it's one of those things over which I just have to shake my head and realize the limits of my understanding only go so far. I didn't understand Thatcherism when that happened, either, but it obviously resonated strongly with a lot of people. I suppose that while you're reasonably well off yourself it must be attractive to have a philosophy which enables you to keep more of your money for yourself and not feel guilty about it.
But, since everybody's not that well off - especially now, and there's still so much resistance to "socialist" ideas that could benefit even those who hate the idea - there must be a reason the not-so-well-off support a system against their own financial interests. Which is why I came up with this hypothesis years ago: I call it starfucking.
As I understand, the term usually refers to trying to associate with celebrities, or pretending to, to get oneself ahead or elevate oneself in the eyes of others. In this case, I use "starfucking" to denote those who will likely never have the money of, say, Warren Buffett - but the notion is in their heads that someday they MIGHT. So, in that slender off-chance, they would not have to want to "give away" so much of their hard-earned fortune to the little people who didn't do as much hard work, and don't deserve it.
(Of course, it's also my postulation that these people never take into account HOW the self-made rich come by their money. Buffett did it trading on the stock market - which is entirely built upon the fortunes of companies, which in turn depend on the productivity and ideas of their employees ... i.e., a lot of those "little people." Likewise, look at someone like Bill Gates, whose fortune I don't begrudge a bit - but, he GOT that money from all of us buying his products. I don't think it's too much to ask he kick in a higher-than-normal share to help keep us healthy and educated. After all, the dead and ignorant have no use for computers.)
Some Americans believe that you have to provide for yourself to be a successful American. Otherwise you're living off the sweat of other Americans.
While I understand that value system, hell, I grew up under it, I also know that ANYONE can fall on hard times no matter how hard you work. It happened to my family and I am still paying for it emotionally to this day.
That's why it makes me very angry to see people screaming Socialism and Fascists about how the Obama administration is trying to help Americans who need it.
The concept these conservatives don't understand is that freedom ain't cheap. If you want freedoms, you have to pay for them. We pay in the form of taxes. It is not taxation without representation - you voted, didn't you? Sorry if your guy didn't get in the White House, but you also vote for your state's senators and representatives to go to Washington and speak for you, as well as local representatives who actually have a greater impact on you at home than most of what your congressmen vote on in Washington on a yearly basis. Hell, we even vote for our road commissioner in my county and when the snow is 8 inches deep he's someone who has a big impact on my life that day!
Taxes are going to be there no matter who's in the White House. If someone doesn't like what the government is doing with their tax dollars, they may try not paying taxes to see how long their freedom lasts then.
Let us also keep in mind that these are the same types of people who, when talking about the war and provisions being sent to Iraqis (or whichever country we happen to be bombing in the name of freedom at the time), will make the comment, "Why don't we help some of the underprivileged people in this country instead of sending so much aid to them?"
These people's "logic"....it escapes me...
As for the "work for what you've got" mentality, I'm split on that. The profession I'm in affords me a little insight into the "welfare state" and it's made me take that attitude on a case-by-case basis. Yes, there are people who desperately need the help...OMG yes. And I love to see those people get what they need. But then there are also ones who refuse to work because it's simply too hard and not worth the time and effort to them when they can get food stamps and TANF all year and the only reason to work for about a month a year is so they can get $2,000-a-piece tax refunds on all their kids at home. (I am not making this up...these are seriously the types of attitudes of some of these people...we had one woman who DIVORCED her new husband so her food stamps would go back up!!)
You can call me jaded, but it's hard to work around that for long and not form an opinion against a lot of it.
The medical care for all thing, though? I think that's an awesome idea. At least they can't trade that for cigarettes...I guess....who knows anymore?
One applicant asked her caseworker (not me) why we kept refusing to give her "her" benefits; her last kid was about to turn 18 and she needed to be allowed so she'd have something to live on! (Never mind that she was a perfectly healthy 40-something.)
Another put on his application that he was filing because if he was on our program he could get out of paying his child support payments.
Plenty of *headdesk* moments in my job, oh yes.
As for health care? Hell, yes. My coworkers and I agree our workload would drop by at least a third if people had access to health care before the condition got so bad they ended up in the ER requiring extensive surgery, time in the ICU, etc.
Well, I've said it before, but I'll continue annoying anyone who'll listen until the day I die or my condition is cured: Had I been able to afford a simple doctor's visit and medication/antibiotics when I was so sick in 2003, I do not believe I would have this lifelong hypothyroid condition. (And it wasn't like I made enough money and was out spending it on hookers and blow, either. My extravagances back then consisted of the occasional paperback novel or dinner out.)
I suppose I could take my normal cynical view and posit that the oligarchy we've been trying to breed in this country again for the past three decades would be happy as clams to weed out the genetically "weak" and poor by letting them rot and die. After all, enough serfs make a light workload for the privileged ... but too many are just that many more mouths to feed. (Hence, you get the almost-constant cycle of war to kill off the surplus.)
At the risk of sounding glib, that's a rather Scrooge-ish remark. I only hope that people for the most part do not feel that way. Not saying anyone reading this does, but it is a rather frightening concept.
To me, the feudal system was frightening - there's a reason they call it the "the Dark Ages" IMO. No chance to move up, no chance for advancement or to stand out and be noticed for being better at something, no way to GET a chance to be more than what you were born. It's why I said I *could* take that view. Just a possibility. Hopefully things are shifting.
I'd heard it said once that if the members of Congress had to pay into Social Security, they'd do everything in their power to make sure it was there for them when they retired. Can't remember who said it, though.
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timeasmymeasure
no subject
Date: 2009-04-25 07:50 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-04-25 02:37 pm (UTC)(disclaimer: I'm employed by of my state government and my salary is mostly funded with federal dollars.)
Also, one of the enduring American myths is rugged individualism (http://www.bartleby.com/59/14/ruggedindivi.html).
People who believe this fall into two camps:
If they're successful, they say, "I made it on my own, and everybody else could, too, if they just worked hard enough!" ignoring minor details like that they went to good schools (paid for by tax dollars), got federally-sponsored grants to pay for their college education (instead of having to rack up thousands of dollars in student loan debt), used their family connections to advance their career, etc.
If they're not successful, they say, "I work hard to feed my family and pay my bills. Why should those people (implied: who are too lazy to work) be given a free ride on my hard-earned money?" This sort prides themselves on never going on what used to be called food stamps (money in the form of vouchers that are only good for food) but has no qualms about taking unemployment insurance payments if they get laid off.
They're also the group most likely to be indignant when they get turned down for a government program (such as disability payments) and demand that whatever program they're applying to "give me back my money" purely on the basis that they paid into the system at some time in the past.*
This group, in essence, divides government spending into two categories: programs that they've paid into and thus have a right to get payments from if they ask and programs where you can get benefits without having to pay in first, like food stamps, which only the aforementioned "they" would take.
I've also seen this type complain indignantly about city, county, state, or federal employees spending "my money" (or "your money" if it's a political rally) on things they don't approve of--things like union dues, political donations (but only if it goes to someone they don't want to win the election), and comprehensive health insurance coverage.
I'm always tempted to ask them if, since they think they have the right to dictate how I spend my salary because they're paying for it, they'd be fine with their boss telling them what they spend their salary on. But I don't bother, because I know what their answer would be: "That's different! I work for my money!" (Yes that's a real quote.)
*They also, in my experience, have a highly-inflated idea of how much money they have in fact actually paid in.
no subject
Date: 2009-04-25 03:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-04-25 03:22 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-04-25 06:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-04-25 09:31 pm (UTC)I'm sure somewhere there's someone who lived in desperation, who received assistance, who doesn't want others to have access to those resources. But I don't want to meet them.
no subject
Date: 2009-04-25 06:02 pm (UTC)You know that.
But for the people I'm talking about (the unsuccessful ones) this is more like an article of faith than a rational, well-thought-out position. They sincerely believe the country would be better off with less government--possibly no government--than it has now. And at the same time, they'd probably be horrified if all the government-funded services in their communities disappeared. No police, no fire protection, no public libraries, no more carefully-maintained softball diamonds at public parks, no public schools, no state colleges, no street repair, no sewage treatment plants or water line maintenance, etc.
It's a particular form of selective vision combined with self-righteousness; a whole range of quietly useful government-provided services (see above) are conveniently ignored while they complain about the relatively small portion of the nation's tax dollars that go to programs they morally disapprove of.
no subject
Date: 2009-04-25 09:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-04-25 09:53 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-04-26 12:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-04-26 03:22 pm (UTC)As I understand, the term usually refers to trying to associate with celebrities, or pretending to, to get oneself ahead or elevate oneself in the eyes of others. In this case, I use "starfucking" to denote those who will likely never have the money of, say, Warren Buffett - but the notion is in their heads that someday they MIGHT. So, in that slender off-chance, they would not have to want to "give away" so much of their hard-earned fortune to the little people who didn't do as much hard work, and don't deserve it.
(Of course, it's also my postulation that these people never take into account HOW the self-made rich come by their money. Buffett did it trading on the stock market - which is entirely built upon the fortunes of companies, which in turn depend on the productivity and ideas of their employees ... i.e., a lot of those "little people." Likewise, look at someone like Bill Gates, whose fortune I don't begrudge a bit - but, he GOT that money from all of us buying his products. I don't think it's too much to ask he kick in a higher-than-normal share to help keep us healthy and educated. After all, the dead and ignorant have no use for computers.)
no subject
Date: 2009-04-25 11:36 am (UTC)While I understand that value system, hell, I grew up under it, I also know that ANYONE can fall on hard times no matter how hard you work. It happened to my family and I am still paying for it emotionally to this day.
That's why it makes me very angry to see people screaming Socialism and Fascists about how the Obama administration is trying to help Americans who need it.
The concept these conservatives don't understand is that freedom ain't cheap. If you want freedoms, you have to pay for them. We pay in the form of taxes. It is not taxation without representation - you voted, didn't you? Sorry if your guy didn't get in the White House, but you also vote for your state's senators and representatives to go to Washington and speak for you, as well as local representatives who actually have a greater impact on you at home than most of what your congressmen vote on in Washington on a yearly basis. Hell, we even vote for our road commissioner in my county and when the snow is 8 inches deep he's someone who has a big impact on my life that day!
Taxes are going to be there no matter who's in the White House. If someone doesn't like what the government is doing with their tax dollars, they may try not paying taxes to see how long their freedom lasts then.
no subject
Date: 2009-04-25 03:26 pm (UTC)These people's "logic"....it escapes me...
As for the "work for what you've got" mentality, I'm split on that. The profession I'm in affords me a little insight into the "welfare state" and it's made me take that attitude on a case-by-case basis. Yes, there are people who desperately need the help...OMG yes. And I love to see those people get what they need. But then there are also ones who refuse to work because it's simply too hard and not worth the time and effort to them when they can get food stamps and TANF all year and the only reason to work for about a month a year is so they can get $2,000-a-piece tax refunds on all their kids at home. (I am not making this up...these are seriously the types of attitudes of some of these people...we had one woman who DIVORCED her new husband so her food stamps would go back up!!)
You can call me jaded, but it's hard to work around that for long and not form an opinion against a lot of it.
The medical care for all thing, though? I think that's an awesome idea. At least they can't trade that for cigarettes...I guess....who knows anymore?
no subject
Date: 2009-04-25 06:19 pm (UTC)One applicant asked her caseworker (not me) why we kept refusing to give her "her" benefits; her last kid was about to turn 18 and she needed to be allowed so she'd have something to live on! (Never mind that she was a perfectly healthy 40-something.)
Another put on his application that he was filing because if he was on our program he could get out of paying his child support payments.
Plenty of *headdesk* moments in my job, oh yes.
As for health care? Hell, yes. My coworkers and I agree our workload would drop by at least a third if people had access to health care before the condition got so bad they ended up in the ER requiring extensive surgery, time in the ICU, etc.
no subject
Date: 2009-04-25 09:22 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-04-25 09:51 pm (UTC)We so need universal coverage in this country.
no subject
Date: 2009-04-25 10:00 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-04-26 05:19 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-04-26 05:22 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-04-26 05:20 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-04-26 05:24 am (UTC)