Pot ... kettle?

[veronica_rich]

I saw a comment on a J/E story earlier that had me widening my eyes pretty comically (you know, like someone who's just had a heavy weight dropped on their toes): This is just epic. It's everything AWE wasn't and should've been. It's huge, sweeping, glorious stories like these that give me reassurance that fandom hasn't gone to the shits.

Emphasis mine.

Like a bunch of troublemakers who were part of the J/E faction aren't what DROVE fandom to its present shits. Holy shikies.

That's what you call willful (sorry, JACKfull) ignorance or selective blindness. DUDE.

Comments

[bombazzinedoll.livejournal.com]

You should have seen the comment I got at potc_feminists yesterday - I replied to a post, saying that I don't really see the alleged misogyny in AWE, and the poster came back with:

You're entitled to your opinion re: the lack of misogyny in AWE; I happen to be a part of a comm called potc_feminists that does see it.

Oh, the desks I headed.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Well ... I can only surmise that this is how the moderators must want the community to be seen, and the party faithful are doing their part to reinforce the dogma?

Though, I kind of feel sorry for any fan who joined out of a genuine desire for true discussion and wasn't going looking for the sparrabethII community. (Because ... I'll bet a nice shiny dollar there's already been Will-bashing there - but no Jack-bashing!)

[philosophercat.livejournal.com]

Seen as a place where dissent is quashed? Awesome, sign me UP! ^_^

[bombazzinedoll.livejournal.com]

To be perfectly honest with you, after a month of membership this has been the wankiest post I've seen, to my (pleasant) surprise. The rest of it has been very adult, and very diplomatic, which is exactly what I joined up for.

[philosophercat.livejournal.com]

Wait, what? ... Very silly.

[bombazzinedoll.livejournal.com]

Yeah. To be fair, she did mention she had crossposted to sparrabeth, but come on. And it irritated me that she decided to take it upon herself to speak for the whole community when - as it later became apparent - obviously there were differing opinions.

edited for coherency, lol

[danglingdingle.livejournal.com]

(JACKfull)

If I'm nowhere to be seen for a week, I've died of laughter.

You're missing the point of that comment completely! Wank hasn't dragged that person's fandom down, in fact, it has improved it, made it that person's paradise in the Internez. Of course there's reassurance, shitloads of it, as everything else is slowly dying away from interfering with a dreamfandom where everything is just in epic porportions, where everything that could cause even minor unease has been bulldozed and willed JACKed off ;P

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Well, you're definitely right about one thing - most J/E is nothing but mental jacking off, alright.

[mamazano.livejournal.com]

I am going to wade in with my own opinion, since there is really nowhere else to express it. So pardon my intrusion.

I came into this fandom WAAAAY late in the game, and immediately was overwhelmed with the J/E agenda. I have since formed my own opinions based on what I've seen, but the first and foremost impression I have had is this:

Sparrabethers fall into two categories. Johnny/Jack fans that want to fantasize about fucking him so they self insert themselves as Elizabeth (being the only thin, blonde, female in the films. Okay, Giselle is, to me at least, more attractive, but she's a whore and Lizzie is the the privileged rich kid) Or they are man hating "feminists" that want to take a Disney movie and turn it into a definitive deciding point for all those young women out there that might be swayed otherwise by the obvious misogynic message it is spreading.

And secondly, my opinion once again, they bash Will because they do not find Orlando/Will to be as sexy and fuckable as Johnny/Jack.

I apologize for being crude. But, it seems the crux of these JE (yes, it has gone from being a pairing in my mind to a separate character)stories is not about which man is best for Lizzie, but more about how fast they can get to the sex bit.

I have seen almost every poignant Will/Elizabeth moment in the movies rewritten to be a JE moment. One even had Jack taking Lizzie maidenhood right below deck before Will and Lizzie had that conversation about her feeding Jack to the kraken. I say, huh? Talk about a head banging moment.

I do not see how this type of writing can be promoting a feminist viewpoint. For me, the best thing Lizzie could have done is told both Jack and Will to go fuck themselves and sailed off on adventure without ANY man.

And that would, again IMO, be just fine.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Yeah, giving someone your virginity is a hell of an apology! (And this WAS a J/E story!)

Boy, am I glad the screenwriters never took a crack at J/W in canon ...

[mamazano.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it made me want to puke too. What was even more nauseating was the fact that there were a slew of comments that thought it was the perfect "missing" scene.

Bleh!

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

One even had Jack taking Lizzie maidenhood right below deck before Will and Lizzie had that conversation about her feeding Jack to the kraken. I say, huh? Talk about a head banging moment.

Ohhh, I remember THAT one - for the simple fact that one of the head feminists who has complained loudly and repeatedly about Elizabeth being left "barefoot and pregnant" by Will left a comment to it, to the effect of how hot it was and wouldn't it be great if that kid were Jack's? Up to that point, I disagreed with her, but at least I still had some respect for her beliefs - I lost it right there and could no longer take her prosthelyzing seriously.

I used to dislike a lot of J/E because it was Will-bashing, but I've sort of gotten used to that, especially from certain writers. I figured out what I really dislike is how these fans have made me hate their versions of Elizabeth. I like Elizabeth of the movies, overall. But they take a mostly strong, yearning-to-be-independent, somewhat confused and overwhelmed but determined young woman, and they turn her into the Queen Bitch Boss On Wheels - a woman that if I were a lesbian, I would cross the street to avoid her, rather than hit on her, because I have more self-respect than to hook up with that kind of personality. (Apparently Jack doesn't?)

[(Anonymous)]

“ Johnny/Jack fans that want to fantasize about fucking him so they self insert themselves as Elizabeth (being the only thin, blonde, female in the films.”

True. There are also plenty of Johnny/Jack fans who don’t fantasize about fucking him, they just like the actor/character. They are the ones who either disliked Elizabeth or were sparrabethers because they liked the idea of Jack getting the girl. They are also the ones who are okay with AWE because it is quite clear that Jack no longer wants the girl, he wants immortality.

“Disney movie … the obvious misogynic message it is spreading.”

Elizabeth exemplifies what misogynists think of women – she uses sex to manipulate and betray men, and she’s fickle. So yeah, I think the POTC movies are misogynistic too. Oh wait, that’s not what true “feminists” are saying? My bad.

“they bash Will because they do not find Orlando/Will to be as sexy and fuckable as Johnny/Jack.”

Having been involved in my share of trench warfare at IMDb, it’s apparent many bash Orlando/Will because of some weird reasoning that to diss Will is to elevate Jack. Really. Making Will out to be a noob also is a twisted way to justify the sparrabeth pairing.

What I’m trying to say, in a not particularly coherent fashion, is that Will-bashing is rooted in insecurity, not in canon.

Final comment, I liked Jack before I liked Will. Will sort of snuck up on me, so I definitely agree with an earlier comment that Jack is the Shiny.

myselfandi

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm certain they do. Just think if the offenders took half as much time thinking about a realistic, respectful way of getting Jack and Elizabeth together - there might be more good stories instead of a whole load of crap with a few gold nuggets here and there.

[yoiebear.livejournal.com]

Aw, Sparrabethers saved the fandom from the depths of sewage hell?? How did I miss this?!

[a-silver-rose.livejournal.com]

Reading that, I'm stuck somewhere between shaking my head and snickering at the post-er's purple prose.

[venusinchains.livejournal.com]

That's all well and good for the J/Eers, but where's my reassurance? I'm still pretty sure that it has gone to the shits; and that right there is my proof.

*waits to be told i need to do my part*

(*agrees* I need to work on that...)

[justawench.livejournal.com]

First, our roommates brought their friends to crash on the couch, then they trashed up the place and complained that we're not keeping the place clean or allowing them to use our bedroom, too. That's what that seems like.

The comments about how Jack is more misogynist than Will inspired me to create this:
http://pics.livejournal.com/justawench/pic/0019sps0

*is horrible*

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Oh God, you are SO bad! I'm not really sure whether to die of laughter or mortification.

Seriously, I don't see any in this series - I'd say all the guys are pretty egalitarian with respect to gender. I guess my point is, if you're going to yell about Jack being better for her because his personality is not as "limiting" to her as Will, boy, do you have a flawed argument.

(I'm not big on Elizabeth or any woman being treated that way. Now, if you were to, say, use some symbolism of the shout-down feminists' bad arguments in this fandom in place of that face, getting bitchslapped by a character tired of being ill-used, from the movie ... well ...)

[metalkatt.livejournal.com]

Oh. Em. Effing. Gee. That is freakin' hilarious. I'm serious. I haven't stopped laughing. This is so totally being saved to brighten me up on a shit day. It's so amazing that I have to use my evil grin icon, even though it's nowhere near the right fandom.

Here, have an internet. You've won it.


(resulting conversation)

Me: *can't stop laughing*

Veronica: You're horrible.

Me: It's FUNNY! In it, I don't actually see "Elizabeth." What I see is the Mary Sue, self-insertion fanbitches getting a whack from a rightfully pissed off member of the movie.

[fried-flamingo.livejournal.com]

Ah, y'all make me laugh. What a tasty little stew you've got going on over here.

Thanks for reading the fic though :)

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Hey, I like to be entertained. I'm waiting to see just how out of character Elizabeth can *get* and how Will's going to be fucked over in the end.

Must be the "extreme" in me. ;-)

Since you brought it up...

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

And speaking of stews in comments to posts ... to assume that those who simply enjoy the movie without seeing shadows in corners are somehow dull and stupid is in itself an elitist attitude. Your particular section of J/E have set yourselves apart (and tried to set yourselves above) everyone else in this fandom and treated the rest of us like we're witless and lacking basic intelligence if we don't agree with your opinions.

Fair enough. But don't be surprised when those people treat you with the same condescension and contempt.