veronica_rich | Wow (courtesy of angry

I've heard about that. Some people who can't vote for Clinton, so they're going Republican instead.

Well, I've always said Clinton really IS a Republican. But her proposals were still better than McCain's.

I suppose it was naive of me to suppose that, whether Clinton or Obama lost, their supporters would by and large turn to whoever was the remaining Democratic candidate when it came to the final presidential vote. (I mean, I was a Clinton supporter, and that was always my plan. I felt the Democandidates were pretty win/win, really.) If not because they shared a lot of the same policies, then surely at least because they were NOT!McCain.

*sigh* Well, being NOT!Bush didn't make Kerry a shoe-in the way I'd assumed back then--I suppose the same logic wouldn't apply now. Oy.

Edited 2008-06-10 07:02 (UTC)

I don't get the Democratic Party. I REALLY DON'T. It should have been a fucking cakewalk to beat Bush in 2004 ... and they couldn't manage it. And now? I think either of my pet cats would make a better president than Bush OR McCain - except, the party would eat itself from the inside out fighting over who should get the nomination: the tuxedo, or the tiger-striped tabby.

Democrats: IT SHOULD NOT BE THIS HARD. OMG, SERIOUSLY.

They support Hillary SO much that they won't respect what she asks them to do, and turn their support to Obama and the Democratic Party? And voting for McCain, talk about kicking her when she's down! Don't they see that?

Nobody ever said Democrats were smarter than Republicans, or any other party, alas. *sigh*

I had a boyfriend once who'd do the most idiotic self destructive crap, if he got mad enough at me. In the sense of "Look what you made me do."

This looks an awful lot like that. Except that jerk only hurt himself.

And then *you* are supposed to feel bad about it.

Except in this case, when the stupid majority tie us to the wrong leader, we all have to suffer. So we DO all feel bad about it, I suppose.

Way to show how rational and thoughtful women are. Not to mention that I've been getting the vibe that, as a woman, I'm free to vote for any female candidate of my choosing. Bite me, bitches. (See, I can use that term and get away with it!)

I guess all those women will be pleased when Roe v. Wade is overturned and their employers no longer offer insurance thanks to McCain's Every Man for Himself healthcare plan.

Way to show how rational and thoughtful women are.

*snort* Apparently it's not restricted to just

sparrabeth and

potc_feminists!

See, I can use that term and get away with it!

You misogynistic whore, you.

I guess all those women will be pleased when Roe v. Wade is overturned and their employers no longer offer insurance thanks to McCain's Every Man for Himself healthcare plan.

Hey! At least they wouldn't have had to vote for a BLACK man to get it. EWWWW! Cooties! /sarcasm

Edited 2008-06-10 13:20 (UTC)

Is this more of that new brand of Radical Feminism? It does seem kind of self-defeating. :-/

I like to call it the "cut your nose off to spite your face" feminism. (And I've seen it in other movements - promotion of racial equality that's turned to racial supremacy comes to mind most immediately. As a friend likes to describe it, this is the "principles before people" mindset that will piledrive right over a human being - even one who might agree with you 95 percent - if they don't fall 100 PERCENT in line with you.)

This is what happened up here. Canadians were angry at the Liberals for their sponsorship scandalness, voted in the Conservatives just to show 'em. And now, I hear of people being sentenced to house arrest for 6 years... without charge.

*cries*

You know, I wouldn't mind people who voted for an asshat getting their just deserts in the form of higher taxes, fewer services, decreased civil liberties, revoked mortgages, lost jobs, etc. ... but it's that the rest of us who DIDN'T vote to shoot ourselves in the foot are also having the gun cocked at us.

Seriously... I know the campaign got a bit ugly, but people need to stop pretending that Obama and Clinton aren't 95% identical. I had lost a good deal of my good feeling towards Hillary by the end, but I'd cast a grudging vote for her LONG before chucking a spiteful vote to McCain. Christ.

I had lost a good deal of my good feeling towards Hillary by the end, but I'd cast a grudging vote for her LONG before chucking a spiteful vote to McCain.

I lost a good deal of my good feeling when she voted to approve the war in 2002 ... and then never retracted that or apologized for it being a mistake. (Which I still don't think she's done.) And then she lied about being shot at? Christ, if you're going to lie about something that DOESN'T MATTER, what will you do when Big Shit happens?

Despite that, yes, I still would have voted for her over McCain. That's what the bitter Hillaryists don't understand: I think *most* of us casting a Democratic vote in November are doing it mainly as an anti-Republican measure (which, my reason is that the party needs to go away and clean itself up for a while. BADLY. Nixon wouldn't recognize it now). So why would it be OK for Obama supporters to have to suck it up and vote for her (which I'm *certain* they would be pushing if she were getting the nom), but not in reverse?

Ah, yes - my old favorite, misogyny. I've said it before about fandom feminists - "I do not think that word means what you think it means."

How is it that they don't understand that if we don't vote for the Dem candidate, the Rep candidate is going to win the election?

Oh, I don't know. I've seen lots of examples of self-defeating illogic in fandom in the last two years. You don't think that mindset goes on outside of fandom, too? ;-)

Look at it this way--for a lot of people it isn't about party loyalty. It's about how the candidates fit with what a person's personal viewpoints and values. Some of the BS is spite, and some of it is simply that the chosen candidate really isn't what people feel the country needs.

This thing about voting "Democrat or die" thing is BS for all the Independant and third party voters and disaffected Republicans. They have to find a candidate that aligns closest with their views. Not everyone who wanted to vote for Clinton was a democrat--and not just because that douche Rush Limbaugh thought he was being clever. (the man needs to be shot for perverting our election processes)

Obama is very far left and liberal. Clinton was pretty left but she was more centrist in a lot of aspects. People who are more conservative aren't going to go as far left as Obama. It just ain't going to happen.

McCain isn't Satan. He's not the best candidate in the world, but neither is Obama. (and Obama supporters who recoil at people who say that, start screaming "RACIST" and throwing insults around really are NOT helping the cause. Just sayin'.)

Personally, I'm researching third party options because I really find both major party candidates unacceptable.

That said, if McCain does the predicted softening of the Republican party platform on abortion, that's going to take a way a lot of Obama's moderate female republican support that would be voting for him only for that reason. The frothing at the mouth conservatives really are not a major factor. They--and everyone else--overestimated their pull. That's evident by the fact that McCain overwhelming defeated their favored son Romney.

I know we don't agree on these things, but just my two cents from not necessarily the other end of the spectrum, but maybe more towards the middle???

Edited 2008-06-10 13:14 (UTC)

First of all, I'm not sure you fit into this post's intentions - you're Republican and I know that. I'm referring to either the "party faithful" or those who cannot vote for McCain in any conscience (as I simply can't).

And I'm not implying you don't have a conscience. But in fairness, I get the feeling you and I don't vote for exactly the same things all the time. *G*

I'm not pushing Obama; well, you know that already. We've had that discussion. I'm simply pointing out the convoluted, self-defeatist (to me) thinking that would have people who are voting for one platform and set of ideals abandon it for the an almost-opposite set because they're not getting the exact person they want. (It's just IMO, but I don't think Obama is to the Democratic party what Bush was to the Republicans - way radical off the map and largely non-representative of the party's ideals.)

Edited 2008-06-10 13:27 (UTC)

Meh. I figured that I wasn't targeted. But I still wonder why people just can't see that not every Democrat leans to the far left, just like not every Republican leans to the far right. There are conservative Democrats and liberal Republicans and moderates on both sides.

Clinton represented more of the middle ground--especially on national security, which is a BIG issue because of where our numbnuts-in-chief has gotten us. People can shift a little, but you can't expect an complete ideological shift just because someone is the candidate.

I'm sure the majority of Democrats will be voting in lockstep this year. But I'm also sure that there's going to be a lot of third party voting too.

But I'm also sure that there's going to be a lot of third party voting too.

Personal principles that would lead to a vote for a third party are fine. But real-world practicality has to occasionally win out, especially when that voting would put the candidate you *least* want right in the driver's seat after all. And at this point, I do not want to see McCain in the White House.

I don't lean that far to the left either, but I've voted Republican exactly ONCE in my life, and it was for a very moderate gubernatorial candidate. He was pro choice, which, I admit, it extremely important to me. But I'm not going there in this post.

I agree with Ver that this is the classic case of "cutting off your nose to spite your face." I disgree that Obama and Clinton are THAT different in their policies; their voting records show it, I believe. People are pissed, REALLY pissed, because their candidate lost, and there is lots of real and perceived personal slighting going on. Hillary's supporters are so mad because they believe she got bad treatment from the press because she's a woman; I agree that gender bias is pretty deep. And we'll see how deep the racial bias remains in this country. I for one am not optimistic that Obama can win this. As much as I loathe the thought of McCain in the White House, I'm trying to be realistic.

And as for "softening the Republican platform on abortion," that will not happen. There are too many organized and vocal forces that support the party generously that will NEVER allow that to happen. Moderate repubs who support women's rights don't get elected, at least as far as I can tell, and certainly not in red states. McCain, IMO, promises a third term for Bush, and Democratic voters looking for another option should look at his candidacy very closely if they think they're getting something "different." The power behind the republican party is very strong. It shouldn't be underestimated.

An anti-choice attitude will kill a candidate's chances with me, as well, which is why I usually end up with a Democrat. But in this election there are even more important factors that will literally determine the course of this nation and of our lives over the next ... well, EVER. We have a slumped economy and no clear, ready way out under continuation of the same trade policies of the last eight years (really, of the last 25 or so - including Clinton - but this administration has happily carried on instead of trying to put any brakes on it); this government has pissed everyone who has oil off to the point of having to fake concern for dying Africans in order to make nice toward getting their oil because nobody else will deal fairly with us (and if you think the rest of the world can't see this administration's insincerity, you're wrong); and we no longer have even a moral vision as a country, thanks to Gitmo and that prison in Iraq and fucking INVADING a nonthreatening nation and killing civilians.

*sigh*

One of the girls I know online who is probably the most unreasonable person I know, admitted to me that she absolutely hates McCain but she decided he was her back up and she had to stick to that. As she said "it's important to vote, so he'll get mine, but ONLY because Hillary isn't on the ballot."

I'm sorry, but first of all, it's only important to vote if you're voting for a reason and not just to vote. You're hurting the country more by voting for someone you dislike. Second of all, if you supported at Hillary at all, then you owe it to this country to at least look at Obama's plans since they're so completely similar, at least compared to McCain's.

...it makes my head hurt. This is why I have no faith in Americans. Petty, petty, petty.

Edited 2008-06-10 20:15 (UTC)

if you supported at Hillary at all, then you owe it to this country to at least look at Obama's plans since they're so completely similar, at least compared to McCain's

That's the key, right there: The lesser of two evils. There are things I know McCain stands for that I just can't agree with. Plus, looking at this election from an outsider's POV (i.e., anyone not an American), Obama is the only one of the three who can say: "I didn't vote for this war. I do not approve of this war, nor of the divisive foreign policies the previous administration espoused. I will work to rebuild America's relationships with other countries (because I'm not one who contributed to them being like they are!)."

IMO, if people are going to compare DNC 2008 to the General Election of 2000, a few things need to be pointed out:

1) Hilary Clinton was claiming she got more of the popular vote based only on the numbers of voters in the *primaries*. The voting numbers from the *caucuses* were not calculated, because they were not available or released (can't recall which off the top of my head).

2) Hilary Clinton has long been seen as a divisive figure, ever since her First Lady Days. I'll concede that a good slice of this is because she's a woman, but she's has been tagged with the "liberal" label just like Obama has.

3) I don't think it would be too far off base to surmise that if Obama had walked away with the majority of pledged delegates (with or without Florida and Michigan), the superdelegates are well aware that if they went the other way and gave Clinton the nomination, they would effectively be slicing the Democrat Party's vote. *That* would be the big scandal, the Dems ignoring the vote of the people (by way of pledged delegates) and throwing the victory to the person who lost. Sound familiar, anyone?

4) Hilary Clinton was OK with the punishment being handed down to the FL and MI delegations until it became clear that she needed their votes to bolster her delegate count.

5) McCain, while trying to distance himself from Bush publicly, is actively trying to court Bush's support. He also wants to make Bush's corporate tax cuts permanent. Doesn't sound like he's doing much distancing to me.

6) McCain voted AGAINST the national holiday honoring Martin Luther King, Jr.

7) Obama, while serving in the Illinois legislature, voted for a gas tax holiday. The gas tax holiday didn't work, as prices stayed the same or went higher anyway. Obama has since apologized voting for this failed idea.

8) McCain believes in free trade, which, although a noble idea on paper,just doesn't work.

I'm sure I can come up with some other things, too, given more time.

#2: YES. This is not a new thing. I mean, I can understand how teenagers wouldn't know better, but adults should be well aware of this.

#5: That man has flipflopped more than John Kerry ever thought about doing. I can't respect a guy who went crawling back to Bush after Bush fucking gutted him in the 2000 primary. That's the big thing - I used to at least respect McCain, but I haven't for some time.

#7: Well, I guess you could say he at least *tried*. And I love how people are yelling about him raising taxes ... without hearing the other half of what he said, about WHO he wants to raise taxes on. (It's like the Republicans yelling about the farm bill "raising taxes" a few months ago - uh, those weren't tax raises, those were *enforcing* the taxes that *ought* to have been collected for a long time on offshore businesses.)

Heard an NPR report this evening where they interviewed 3 "radical" Hillary supporters, emphasis mine. All 3 claimed they would be voting for McCain in November.

I don't know if the NPR report meant to reveal these people as idiots or not, maybe that's why they featured 3 with the same ignorant viewpoint. It didn't sound like they knew a damn thing about what Obama's platform/plans are, they were just pissed off. There were 2 women and one man, believe it or not. The man believed Obama was going to overtax businesses, of all things. Let's start with the oil companies, shall we? Christ on a trike.

The whole feminism thing has me stymied. So it's unfeminist if you vote for Obama since you can't vote for Hillary, WTF??? Sounds like it's just a fucking excuse to hide the real reason, racism.

There is a part of white middle class America which harbors racial bias. I do not mean the rednecks in Appalachia, I mean middle and upper class COLLEGE educated WHITE Americans. I know a few. They usually drive SUVs and wear designer clothes/suits; are members of the golf club, yacht club, boat club, you-name-it-club. They like to think they are liberal, because they want their individual rights, but when it boils down to it, they are neocons.

I would love to know the demographics of the Hillary supporters/Obama haters. I bet most fall in those above descriptions. They didn't learn anything in college because they were too busy with the frat party/sorority bash scene. When I was in college no one talked about it, but it was widely known that most frats and sororities didn't let in black people. Which is why they haven't bothered to know what Obama wants to do for America; they only supported Hillary because all their friends did. And the women can now call themselves feminists because they supported her, even though a lot of them only work to pay for daycare or get out of the house.

I'll laugh my ass off if Obama does decide to pick Hillary for Veep.
Those people are going to either eat their words then, or be voting for a black man.

You know, I really try not to think about this particular aspect. Not because I wish to remain willingly ignorant, but because it's too depressing to believe some melatonin *matters* in an age of science and technology.

Though, I heard something on NPR this morning about how it seems in the times of greatest technological advances, that cultural attitudes backslide - almost like people are incapable of rapidly advancing in both, so they have to choose one or the other. The woman used the "Dark Ages" as an example and pointed out how many technological inventions were coming into play all at the same time, and commented we may be seen as another "dark age" off in the future someday for the same reasons.

My take on this is that instead of making all these handy little gadgets better (ie, new and improved Iphone), how about we work on making human beings better. Not better in terms of health, but better in terms of, hey, let's actually treat one another with respect and humility and do right by one another and try to be less fucking greedy. Until we learn to do all those things, mankind is not really advancing at all.

Gene Roddenbery's vision for mankind is very very science fiction indeed.

His vision was definitely way too early - I don't think humans will be rid of the warring and capitalist instinct in 400 years. *Maybe* 4,000 if they manage to hang on that long as a species.

It blows my mind how deep the stupid goes.

There seems to be a huge number of people in this country who honestly believe that Hillary (HERSELF, not just her party or those who agree with her policies) is pure goodness and the salvation of America. I liken this to the third of the population who believe that GWB has done no wrong.
I've known of this woman longer than most of you -- she is not the saint you think she is!

Sure there's an element of racism in the vote-for-McCain-out-of-spite movement, but I think a bigger factor is good old-fashioned immaturity and magical thinking. The "I'm going to hold my breath until you make Hillary the nominee" attitude. The kind of thinking that drives people to call me at the paper where I work wanting me to jump in my time machine and make yesterday's edition not say what it said.

Grow up and get a grip, folks. You want a candidate on the left who has a real chance of winning, you got Obama, Obama or Obama. Otherwise, vote for the alternate party that fits your views or STFU.

This is sort of what I was feeling as I wrote this entry. I don't know that I've ever voted for the exact person I wanted in any office - I think that's the nature of representative government, you have to take the best that's offered or that you can actively get nominated. But what really gets me are the women who act like Hillary is their greatest hope simply because she's female. I can be glad that she's created a space for women bidding for the White House from now on, without thinking she ought to be the one in it, or that she'd be the only good candidate in it.

Wow (courtesy of angry_biscuit)

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Feel free to pass this along =)

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