The spammage continues

[veronica_rich]

(I feel like this should become "Vacation: Day Five-01" or something)

Surely everybody and their pet iguana has likely seen the link to the blog entry by now from the woman who claims that writing and reading m/m slash is perpetuating male heirarchy and expectations, rather than being the subversive, non-mainstream thing we all thought it was when many of us got into it several years ago - before the mainstream actually had ever heard of "slash" or "fanfiction."

My take on slash is that I enjoy it as a form of romance in a way that I don't any longer enjoy the vast majority of "typical" m/f romance novels, by and large. When I buy a book, I buy something about science or history, or suspense and sci-fi, but rarely do I buy a categorical romance, though I did when I was much younger. I understand this sounds like a rather shallow reason for enjoying something that takes up several hours of my life each week, but it would be disingenuous for me to pretend otherwise.

And as much as I love reading and occasionally contributing my own meta on my preferred slash pairings, the fact is that I rarely give it the kind of internal examination we were required in college to give Chaucer, or the reasons behind the 19th century labor movement. I am capable of that level of dissertation - I just don't want to, with slash, or even fanfic, all that much. Perhaps this is why I grew so impatient with all the POTC meta-chatter following DMC - are we not allowed to have something we just enjoy, without having to defend why, so long as we're nice to our fellow fen and don't try to step on their toes? I mean, I asked someone at another post earlier to define radical feminism and explain its appeal over what he called "liberal/status quo feminism." And while he gave me a pretty good explanation, and it's something I would gladly see parts of applied to real-world changes ... the fact is, when you try to apply it to something you do alone in your off-hours to unwind, it just comes across as so much overblown horseshit. Am I alone? Or just exceedingly shallow, that I don't see "something" political in EVERYTHING that comes across my field of vision on a daily basis?

EDIT: Unless lesbian fanfic is being written with an eye toward reality (e.g., women who don't have Barbie-figures and long, flowing hair, who don't want a man in their bed or between them and their girlfriend, or WATCHING), how is it any different from what I have to put up with out of many men on a regular basis? The only difference between their lesbian fantasies and my m/m ones is that they can discuss theirs out in public and it's accepted as being part and parcel of being a hetero man ... but if I try to discuss the fact that I like to watch two hot men get it on for my benefit, I'm perverted and weird. So ... I'd love for this FEMINIST to tell me why I should spend MY time and effort perpetuating a MAN'S fantasy in written form.

Comments

[ainsoph15.livejournal.com]

I have long held the view that radical feminists are nihilists by another name. They espouse separatism on every level. They demand a rigidity towards politics and the political which is just as unbending as any patriarchy. They undermine that there is any value in empathy whatsoever. They have so totally conflated gender with identity that they are unable to see anyone as simply 'human', only by how they gender-identify.

I read the article. It is so marred by generalisations and (whoops, there they are again) invalid syllogisms that it is laughable. But, of course, she won't enter into any kind of dialogue about her views. Oh, how very 'radical' to set up an opinion and then not listen to anyone else's views about it - to even go so far as to censor responses that disagree. Doesn't that sound like the very worst kind of attitude usually associated in the past with a stereotypical male???

Really, anyone that associates themselves with this lovely little corner of hatred - http://www.questioningtransgender.org/ - couched in nonsensical rhetoric, which I found when having a look at the links to other sites on that page, can only want one thing. Death to difference. Death to inclusivity. Death to any sense of kinship or harmony or compassion.

Wow. It made me SO SO FUCKING mad. I may have to go and write vast amounts of incredibly graphic gay porn to make myself feel better. Sheesh.

[gloromeien.livejournal.com]

I wholeheartedly agree. Much better said than my pity attempt.

Also, please do! ;D
-G.

[danglingdingle.livejournal.com]

Hear, Hear! I concur every single word you said.

This is what I can not understand in radical feminism. It looks like all they are trying to accomplish is to feel supreme towards males, to be above a gender who's plumbing just happens to be different than the female's, which to me sounds like pursuing the exact same thing they are preaching is so horribly wrong. It has nothing to do with equality or the human rights of anyone.

Sad, very, very sad.

[caniad.livejournal.com]

I think you might be right about radical feminists as nihilists. At least she admitted that she's a radical feminist right up front. I think she could have skipped the rest of her analysis, because I could have told you exactly what she was going to say. She's entitled to believe whatever she wants, but just for once I'd like to hear an original thought from the radical feminist camp. It's all starting to sound the same now, making for a "radical" perspective that is becoming increasingly predictable.

I will say, though, that I'm happy to see an acknowledgement of fan fiction within academia (if she even fits into such a category). I personally think that it's a fascinating part of the literary culture, although I've definitely reached conclusions that are completely different from the writer of that blog. I'd also like to see more discussion of it at the scholarly level, if only to have people realize that alongside the very badly written fics are surprisingly well-written stories.

Oh, and totally agreed about the generalizations that she makes. Honestly. Her analysis isn't even approaching logical.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

My beef is less about her examining it than about her poorly-drawn and stated "conclusions." Where's the research material? Where's her interviews and statistics and sources? Because her descriptions don't fit the slash *I* regularly read; in fact, a rather small percentage of it (and some I've never seen in all my years of reading - like a gay character "turned straight" - where?). What serious scholar/academic would accept THIS as depth research?

[caniad.livejournal.com]

Exactly. I would be interested in a well-developed essay on the topic of fan fiction (and/or slash writing), but this isn't one. I think she's trying to pass off poorly expressed opinions under the guise of scholarly writing, and it just comes across as a bad presentation that verges on being offensive. To be honest, I don't read slash writing, but I'd love to hear some opinions from the people who do. Statistics will be tough to find or even compile, simply because this is (from what I understand) a web-only phenomenon, but it would be a valuable contribution to the literary community. A couple of months back I read an article (dating from the early 90s, I think) from a woman who did a wide-scale study on the popularity of Harlequin romances, which have traditionally been ignored among scholars. Her findings were fascinating and indicated just how important it is to consider the wide variety of reading that people really do. I think fan fiction makes for a good comparison. I've only heard of one professor at the university level offering a study of this, but I'd like to see it discussed more. It's completely not my field (I lean toward the medieval stuff), but I'd be willing to take a class in it.

As for the gay characters turning straight, that one throws me for a loop. I can't imagine anyone offering a serious slash fic only to have it end with the men (or women) walking off into the sunset with someone of the opposite sex. That would pretty much undermine the entire thing, wouldn't it?

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I think what I dislike about radical feminism is the idea that we need to rebuild all of society either in some elusively-described (or most of the time, not at all) female-dominant system, or have a separate system for men and women. I mean, really ... these people talk like men and women are dogs and cats. They're not; they're members of the same exact species. Men and women don't think as differently as many of these radical feminists (and some male chauvinists - because that's exactly what a radical feminist IS to me, in reverse) like to put on.

[caniad.livejournal.com]

Thank you. I have no wish to separate myself. I just want to be able to walk into a job and be given the chance to do it as well as a man. That doesn't sound too radical to me. I don't think gender should be mentioned at all, unless absolutely necessary. Radical feminist ideology is the result of taking a good idea (rights for women) and pushing it to an illogical conclusion. I don't even think radical feminists can exist anywhere but in academia, because the theories simply aren't realistic. Too bad. They started with something legitimate and made it pretty much useless in practice.

[ainsoph15.livejournal.com]

Yes, exactly. Radical feminism seems to insist upon the ghettoisation of genders, dividing them into separate camps, and never the twain shall meet. Funny, I always thought feminism was about breaking down barriers, not building great big walls between women and the rest of the world.

[captsparrow4evr.livejournal.com]

See, I don't even know that I would call her a radical feminist so much as a "reactionary" feminist. In my day (I know, I know, "Do go on, Grandma!"), the radical feminist did want to set up "Herland" (see Charlotte Perkins Gilman) and have absolutely nothing to do with men but this woman wants to make women superior to men, to take control from them. I can't see how that would be any better societally than the old "you can only beat your wife if the stick isn't any bigger than your thumb" chauvinists. Then again, I'm an old school feminist who thinks that people should be free to live up to their potential, no matter who they are or who they love. Silly me.