What about Norrington?

[veronica_rich]

So Nat and I were discussing when "Sweeney Todd" hits theaters and I said someone had told me it's this Friday, and that they remember because it's a big day for movies in general - "National Treasure 2" is coming out, as well. I was telling Nat about NT1, which she hadn't seen, and pointed out the idea actually lends itself to sequels since it's all about treasure-hunting, which is a bottomless vat of possibilities - one does not have to resort to crap B storylines of romantic triangles to have a good time presenting such a story. (I mention this because NT2 is another Ted-n-Terry spectacular - although I have to say, Bruckheimer may have finally learned the best way to use them: As idea guys, and not leave them to write the entire thing, unsupervised. There are separate writers to do the actual work of writing, and the Twins are only credited with the "story.")

Anyway, this is how we got to a discussion of the B storyline in DMC, and while I may not be the first person to ever have this idea, I have to say I haven't seen it anywhere else: Why not Norrington instead of Jack, to be the romantic foil for Will and Elizabeth? The whole purpose of the hinted J/E thing was to make Will's life harder and set up the end of AWE. Okay ... but wouldn't he have also been just as easy to make suspicious of another man by USING another man besides Jack? Think about it. The nice things about writing Norrington in this capacity are:

(a) it would have given him more screentime;

(b) Norrington as Elizabeth's suitor actually makes sense, whereas at least half of us were going When did Jack EVER show interest in her in CotBP, other than when he was in his cups and depressed anyway?;

(c) Elizabeth herself would've been more understandable, since there was presumably a time she would have actually thought of Norrington in that capacity, whereas that same half of us were also going When did she EVER show interest in Jack in CotBP, other than when she feigned to get him drunker so she could set a fire to get off the island to save Will? - to me, it makes more sense to suddenly regain an interest in a former suitor because he's now "mad, bad, and dangerous to know," as Norrington becomes in DMC. This also has the added bonus of both painting Elizabeth as "complex" in DMC (because I have learned from my fellow fans that a woman is only complex if she wants to get busy with at least two different men at the same time) and showing that maybe - just maybe - she wasn't entirely using Norrington in CotBP and actually did like the guy somewhat;

(d) Norrington picking a fight with Will on the waterwheel in DMC would ACTUALLY MAKE SENSE;

(e) when Norrington absconds with the heart toward Beckett, it actually sets up a better situation for Elizabeth to be angry and bitching at him in AWE, as well as making sense of the whole kiss and "dying to protect her" thing; and

(f) when Elizabeth does kiss Jack to distract him at the end of DMC, because he was a coward and sold Will out to Jones, it would actually come as a surprise to Jack and therefore, still be effective to get him chained up. Not to mention, Elizabeth wouldn't come off as scuzzy for practically giving Jack a lapdance earlier in the movie and THEN sending him to the depths for another man. EWWWW.

Now I can already hear the Norrington fans on my f-list. "Why?" you are saying. "WHY would you punish the poor man so? Hasn't he suffered enough?" Well, if he has to suffer anyway, wouldn't it be nice to see some consistency to it AND feel like Elizabeth actually saw him as a real guy and not just one of her stepping blocks toward Will?

(EDIT: Yes, I am this bored. I had things that needed to be done today and at least two of them have been effectively nixed by the foot of snow that fell. Am not happy with it.)

Comments

[starrdust411.livejournal.com]

I think one of the reasons why they didn't go with the Norry/Liz angle (other than the fact that Jack Davenport is not nearly as popular as Johnny Depp in general, and therefore the tween girlies wouldn't get all hot and bothered) is because they sort of delt with that. It probably would have felt like in Spider-Man 3 when Mary Jane fell back in love with Harry just so she could get all confused about her relationship with Peter. Sure they did revisit the relationship in AWE, but only to wrap it up.

[solitaryraven.livejournal.com]

I honestly never thought about this idea, but oh how much I wish they had gone that route. At least there were definite shades of NE in the first movie.

But don't forget...Keira wanted to kiss Johnny and we must keep her happy. Not to mention all of the crazy fans. *eyeroll*

[elessil.livejournal.com]

While I have the "Hasn't the poor man suffered enough?" sentiment, I do also agree with your line of argumentation - it would have made more sense, and much as I'm not a fan of Norrington/Elizabeth, I wouldn't have mind seeing it at all - they did also have more scenes that were cut which would've helped the plausibility. And it'd be typically Elizabeth that his scruffy appearance would suddenly wake her interest.

However, I'm pretty sure the main reason was to give the title hero a girl. At least a little bit; and one that doesn't have black sails ;)

Also, wasn't it YOU with the anti-slash plot device icon? I wager Johnny's comments made Jack a touch too swishy for Disney's comfort, so what better solution than to throw the girl at him?

Last, you must not forget that there is a mission to give Norrington the least screen time possible. He may play a definite key role in DMC, but let's cut all his scenes that aren't 100% central, and even some of those. I'm pretty sure that in all three movies, but definitely DMC, he was the character were, in relation to the screentime he then ended up getting, the most material ended up on the cutting floor. /end sarcastic growl

[a-silver-rose.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah. Gotta love Disney. They can tolerate a lush for a protaganist, but not a homo- or bisexual.

[elessil.livejournal.com]

Also, another element that probably played a role was, that in COTBP, although he really wasn't, the greatest part of the audience perceived Norrington as the villain, as the evil guy trying to force Elizabeth into a marriage she doesn't want. I don't think an objective interpretation of their scenes warrants that (ESPECIALLY not if you take the deleted scenes into account), but god knows how often I watched POTC with "normal" people who had that reaction - it's the Disney film pattern, after all, if there's another suitor, he's evil. So I suppose maybe a lot of the average 14-year olds would've gone WTF at Elizabeth's suddenly rekindled interest in him.

On an in-depth, character related analysis, Norrington makes more sense, but the shallow fangirlness "who would you throw yourself at" points to Johnny. At least for fangirls not as odd as moi ;)

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

it's the Disney film pattern, after all, if there's another suitor, he's evil

So how come Jack never fell into that role at any point? I mean, he sends the hero into danger to save his own skin, then tries to mack on his girlfriend, after all ...

[gryphons-lair.livejournal.com]

Because Johnny took their "morally dubious Errol Flynn-like pirate" role and twisted it into origami. Origami that had half the audience going "OOooooooooo! Pretty!"

And whether they liked it or not, Disney isn't about to trash a cash cow character who became as popular as Jack Sparrow did.

Though sending Will into Jones' clutches without telling him what he was getting into was pretty darn villain-like, IMHO.

[elessil.livejournal.com]

Because Elizabeth was doing the "wooing", not him.

Also, because he's Johnny Depp :P

(Also, because the sequels do NOT follow the classical Disney pattern anymore at all.(after all, the ones with single parents require that parent not dying AND a happy end :P ) COTBP did.

[justawench.livejournal.com]

BUT SOMEBODY HAZ TO KISS JOHNNY DEPP!!1

I agree with all your points. If Elizabeth was suddenly taken with the idea of wanting to be with a "dangerous" man, wouldn't Norrington fit the bill perfectly? She already knows him, but now he's intriguingly fallen and seemingly disinterested in her. Seems like the hard-to-get angle would appeal to her as she wanted Will when he was unobtainable. Of course Jack's pretty unobtainable too, so that discredits my point.

I agree Jack shows no real interest in her in CotBP - I took his actions on the island as "Well, what else have I got to do? Might as well try to crack this nut."

It would have left Elizabeth torn between her original suitors, but it wouldn't have left her with a motive to retrieve Jack. I'm sure a bit of extra story-telling could have come up with something, though.

I was kind of confused by her vehemence toward James when they meet up in AWE. I understand she's upset by her father's death and the turn of events in general, but she's not a pirate (because presumably she and Will were going to return to Port Royal to live a quiet life) so I don't know why she takes his actions so personally. The whole deal with James seemed OOC and shoehorned in.

[pir8fancier.livejournal.com]

Like everyone else here, it's the Depp factor solely that motivated the plotline in DMC. I use the word plotline loosely. The fact that my beloved James could have filled those shoes more ably and more logically, is, sadly, immaterial because clearly they were willing to shoot and release any manner of nonsense that fed their notion of what constituted marketable eyecandy. My that sounds cynical.

[pir8fancier.livejournal.com]

ver: I just had an insane idea. Why don't we run a fest for those people (like me, cough, cough) who have CotBP fic still hanging unfinished OR just CotBP fic that they've wanted to write but haven't, OR fic that they want to write because DMC and AWE screwed up. I mean a general all purpose, we love pirates fest that hopes to recapture the camraderie good times before the Dark Ages. We'd pimp it to people who've exited the fandom due to wankage and hope to draw them back in, issue invitations, etc., I mean, in short, let's get our pirate on!

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

How would we advertise it to the people who left? (One assumes if they've left, they're no longer looking. *G*)

[gryphons-lair.livejournal.com]

A lot of people who left the main fandom (like me) still hang around some of the specialty comms: rnotc, anything_aos, etc.

And there's always word of mouth.

[pir8fancier.livejournal.com]

U agree, getting the word out wouldn't be a problem. Getting fic would be the issue. What do you think? Do you think it would fly?

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

More specifics are needed. What precisely do you have in mind?

[pir8fancier.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, I don't haver any specifics! I was just thinking about the fandom is on the verge of dying (thank you very much, wankers), how much I loved the first movie, how much I want to finish the Your Move series, and how much I seriously need a kick in the pants to do this. And a snarky part of me wants to take BACK this fandom from the people who used it and trashed it. So extremely low on specifics, high on expectations!

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Well, I confess, sticking it to "da man" does tickle my craw ... or in this case, da women ...

[gryphons-lair.livejournal.com]

We could call it the "Raising the Dead" challenge. Resuscitate that dead WIP! Revive that never-written sequel! Give that old plot idea CPR! *g*

[pir8fancier.livejournal.com]

That's IT! Plus your other ideas below are great. Have three separate tracks. I think it needs to be a free-for-all to round up as many people as possible. You're right. What's the worse that can happen? You and I finish our fic? Ooohh, grab the name!

[gryphons-lair.livejournal.com]

Actually, VR and I were chatting last night and she pointed out we already have a perfectly good comm to run this on:

cotbp_fandom :)

If you e-mail me your phone number, I can call tonight and we can discuss possibilities.

Or do you still have my celphone number from SitS1? If so you can call me. Remember I'm 2 hrs ahead of you, though, so I'd appreciate it if you didn't call after 8:30 or so your time.

VR's visiting her family for the holidays so I'm not sure how much free time she'll have to throw her $.02 in.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Well, fiddle. I loved the name so much I created a comm on raise the dead.

:-P~~

Though, we could pimp it on cotbp_fandom ... and a bunch of other places, too ... or I could just abandon the new comm and we could work on "fandom" instead.

[gryphons-lair.livejournal.com]

No, keep the comm!

I'll subscribe as soon as I get home. Right now I'm "stealing" time on the office computer, which is technically Not Allowed.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Check out the community I've created: http://community.livejournal.com/raise_the_dead/profile

Join it so I can make you a maintainer, savvy?

[gryphons-lair.livejournal.com]

Done! :)

[pir8fancier.livejournal.com]

See response to D.. below. After the holidays. Shall the tree of us mod it?

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Check out the community I've created: http://community.livejournal.com/raise_the_dead/profile

Join it so I can make you a maintainer, savvy?

[gryphons-lair.livejournal.com]

I dunno.

On the one hand, I, like you, would love to have my COTBP fire re-lighted so I could finish either "Point of Departure" or the James/Jack arc of Men Must Work (or both) but on the other I'm not sure there's enough spark left in the ashes to kindle even the most flammable tinder.

(OK, that analogy's been stretched enough.)

If we try it, worst thing that happens is it gets zero response and just sort of fades away, taking any hope of reviving the fandom in a form we'd want to rejoin with it.

How to do it, now...

It can't be a ficathon, because IIRC that's when you get story ideas/pairings/what have you assigned to you and have to write what you're given.

I suppose it would work as a challenge, though.

Or maybe a combination request/challenge? People can either request a WIP they want the author to finish, offer a COTBP story idea or a "fix" for DMC/AWE they'd like to read OR they can declare their intention to finish one of their WIPs, write a story idea they had but never worked up, or pick up one of the requests and run with that.

I think it'd need some sort of Comm, where people could talk about how it's going and buck each other up and generally encourage each other. We could call it COTBP_revival maybe? *G*

(I just checked; it's not taken yet.)

[venusinchains.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the whole J/E subplot was to make Will's betrayal of the man he saved and his keeping of secrets from the woman he loved both doable and believable (and yet this is Liz's story *rolls eyes* - or maybe, as solitaryraven suggests, it's Keira's story and we all just have to live with it *induces ocular strain*). But looking at your list, I think it could easily have been done using N/E without pushing Liz over the edge of Pwincessdom or warping Jack so badly that he'd fall for any of it in the first place. (And clear up that moment of illogic Norrie had on the wheel.)

But I also agree with everyone else: that was never going to happen - because they had to make their Big Name Leading Man their Leading Man (instead of their Character Actor), and that requires Getting The Girl, to some extent. (And as much as Liz's degeneration bothers me, the attempt to remake Jack Sparrow as a completely different class of character is just disgusting.)

The whole attempt to rewrite along the lines you've laid out here would make an excellent challenge for Norrie fans. :)

[elibad.livejournal.com]

Although I have to admit a certain block over the whole triangle thing, (it's tired, over-done and I believe that someone creative could come up with something better) this does make more sense than what we were given.

But, for me, it wouldn't matter who Elizabeth was flirting with on the 'Pearl', with Will in some peril over on the 'Dutchman', it's going to seem OOC for me. That just isn't the Elizabeth from CotBP.

[roguedemon.livejournal.com]

It just wasn't commercial enough. Really, I've never been certain the T & T were the ones to blame either (At least, I certainly don't blame them for everything). It looked like Bruckeimer was riding their backs the whole way, and writers are simply not treated well in Hollywood. They have the least amount of power. The filming was incredibly chaotic and it seems like there were a lot of good intentions and things got lost along the way. But anyway, I have a feeling that there were orders to give Sparrow some romantic interest. Pair this with the fact that there seems to be a general belief in Hollywood that love triangles make good story (I have never understood this, because I just don't ever see this happening in real life) and there you have it.

Norrington wasn't popular with the masses, I think the only reason he got as much screentime as he did was that the actor was so good.

I generally always try to be practical. There is always commercial pressure, and sometimes it seems like it must be almost unbearable, especially when you are at the helm of a movie this big, expected recoup such a huge financial investment, and are being pressured by the producer and the studio. With all the shit that was going on, it's a miracle that the movies are even watchable.

Norrington

[(Anonymous)]

I like your thoughts on this. It would have made a much better story, imo. Norrington was the better one for the triangle. And why should an actress get her way if it cheapens the story? Quite a few folks running the show there, above her. If "they" wanted Jack to kiss someone, it should have been Tia Dalma as there is history there and smoldering chemistry. The minute Jack walked in the door the heat turned up. DMC is quite tainted for me because of the choices made with Jack and Elizabeth's characters. Disappointment in Jack for losing his mystery, invincibility, and enduring strength no matter the situation. Loss of respect for Elizabeth and hence, liking her much less and having no sympathy for her from then on because of her fickle nature and questionable faithfulness when Will was in major trouble, trying to save HER. Hope I'm making sense.

[captainsillyhat.livejournal.com]

I thought it was silly that Elizabeth wasn't attracted to Norrington's pirate look. I did not like the idea of Elizabeth flirting with Jack. I prefer the "Love Triangle" from the first movie.

[(Anonymous)]

I agree. With her history of being drawn to the badboy type Elizabeth not seeing newly badass Norrie in a different light never made sense.

Like elessil I'm not a fan of the Norrington/Elizabeth pairing. In fact in the aftermath of DMC and AWE that is the one pairing which I totally dislike and find it hard to read; not even well written fan fiction.

I think that Veronica's original post sums up best why I can't stomach the Norrington/Elizabeth pairing past CoTBP. If the writers/Bruckheimer had shown that Elizabeth had any romantic thoughts about Norrington (however slight) or had at least treated him with a little more respect in the last two films (especially AWE) I would probably be more open to understanding how Norrington could possibly still have any feelings for her.

As it was AWE cemented my feelings regarding the Norrington/Elizabeth pairing. I found Norrington's final scene to be degrading, not at all romantic. It was as if he were begging for scraps of attention while Elizabeth glared, pouted and rolled her eyes at him. Even when she asked Norrington to "come with us, come with me" Elizabeth seemed to be doing her best imitation of a teenager who's parents had just confiscated her cellphone and IP3 player. Stone faced and sullen.

I'm not sure whether that was done on purpose or was a byproduct of how Keira Knightley chose to interpret that scene. According to the writers Elizabeth does care for Norrington as a friend and was horrified by his death but while that is supposedly canon it never truly came across in a believable way on screen. I remember being taken aback by how vicious Elizabeth was to James and disgusted that his reaction was the puppy dog eyes and simpering. Definitely a WTF? moment for me (one of many).

I agree with those who feel that using Norrington as the third piece of a triange in DMC would have made more sense when talking about the characterization and would have made his behaviour in AWE not as OOC and cringe inducing. And I probably would have been more open to the "goodbye" kiss. Of course it also might have helped if Elizabeth had first hugged then kissed James back rather than the one sided worship on his part.

But I also agree that the main reason why this wasn't done was because Jack Davenport isn't well known outside of Great Britain and the fangirls don't find him as attractive as Depp and Bloom.

I happen to find him just as gorgeous and sexy as Mr. Depp (which might be one of the shallow reasons why I love the Sparrington pairing). But as usual when it comes to the POTC fandom my opinions almost always tend to end up being in the minority.

I wrote too much but it's not good for me to start discussing the Norrington character; I tend to get carried away at times.

[(Anonymous)]

I think my age is showing. I think it's an "MP3" player, or something. LOL

[meowbooks.livejournal.com]

Bravo, definitely memming this! It would have made more sense.

I understand the reasons behind using Jack story/commercial-wise and DMC was fun, but the J/E did seem to come a bit out of the blue.

[captainsillyhat.livejournal.com]

In last months issue of Elle magazine, Keira claims, she threw away her cellphone in the ocean because its ringing had annoyed her.