fannish questions

[veronica_rich]

I'm posting this here because it could get wanky, and I'd just as soon not carry that into my Will community any more than it comes up with regular topics of discussion (which is little - and I'd like to keep it that way).

I've seen on some general discussion communities (meaning, non-pairing-specific), forums, and boards, people here and there expressing their dislike of Will's machinations in AWE. It seems double-crossing and tricking the characters around them made the other characters deep and interesting (especially in DMC), but just destroyed their respect for Will. One went so far as to say what she liked about him was that in the first two movies, no matter how he was treated, he was respectful of all and sundry around him, especially Elizabeth - pointing to the last scene in Tia's shack, where he thought he'd lost her. Of course, that's also led a lot of people to regard him as a "pansy" or "wimp" because in these movies, morals are turned upside down and what is normally considered good is questionable, while what is usually considered bad is admirable. I don't think it's a stretch to say Will is the pariah when he's morally good.

Why are Will's double-crosses upsetting fans who didn't like him to begin with (which is where much of it seems to be)? He doesn't try that hard to hide what he's doing, being a neophyte at it - in fact, when Jack is blamed (someone everyone would believe capable of all this), he steps up and takes the blame instead. He looks around and notices everyone else is rewarded when they act this way - so why shouldn't he extrapolate that not only will these things work, they will raise his esteem in the eyes of those around him? As for Elizabeth, if he really does think she loves Jack, it makes sense that he might take on some of Jack's characteristics in order to swing her attention back to himself.

Really, when you get down to it, Will's been used or tricked by all those around him - so why would anyone begrudge him the opportunity to bust a cap on their asses? Even fans of the characters he's using and tricking have to admit they've already gotten their shakes in on him and likely deserve what they're getting in return.

This leads into another question: Why are Will and Elizabeth both so reviled in fandom? It's like they're the only two characters who are - the "bad" guys of Beckett and Barbossa aren't as hated. Jack Sparrow could kill everyone around him and he'd be loved. But Will and Elizabeth are pretty much equally disliked - and I don't think it's because they're alike. They don't act alike. (Will didn't murder any of his friends. He certainly never gave Elizabeth pause about their relationship, over another woman.)

I would also point out something elibad stated in her journal - it's not like Will's rewarded for his actions. And it's not like Elizabeth is entirely deprived for hers. To quote her: It also really stood out for me that while Elizabeth is making new friends and forming life-long bonds with all and sundry, Will becomes more and more alienated as the film goes on, until he's completely cut off. Elizabeth gets a lovely goodbye scene with all her piratey brethren, Will gets cursed. I would love to know what some of these guys were thinking when they found out Will was the new CotFD, and the saver of their collective bacon. I can't really ask it any better than she did.

Comments

[chickenfried-jo.livejournal.com]

here via friendsfriends, hope it's okay that I comment.
I found the ending fantastically bittersweet and much more pleasing. It made me think of the Return of Martin Guerre. I had a lot more respect for the third film because of that. But, hey, I'm not one for happy endings. And who says it wasn't happy? Elizabeth got to keep her freedom, which I think was important to her character. And will became a much greater and more important, and more importantly, a more powerful character through his demise.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Everybody can comment here. I have a pretty open-door policy. *G*

It's sad that Will had to die to gain some power, after all. And even sadder that that power isn't evenly allocated - he might be omnipotent, he might have powers of travel and ... well, whatever else he can do. But he is amazingly limited in what he would certainly LIKE to do, which is be with the woman he loves and not abandon his child.

[starrdust411.livejournal.com]

I didn't really like all the backstabbing and double crossing in general because it got so confusing after a while and that while I will admit that I liked looking at Will as the most moral and honest of all the other characters I do still think that him becoming more piraty and backstabbing was a logical turn for his character. Like it or not, he had to deal with pirates and the only way to deal with a pirate is to become a pirate.

I have to admit that I was in the "I hate Elizabeth" camp, and while I don't hate her as much as the next anti-Elizabeth fan, I don't really like her that much either because to me she, like every other girl in movies, seems to get special treatment just because she doesn't have a Y chromosome. I think the basic answer to your friend's question is because Elizabeth's a girl and Will is not. It's easier for other men to hate a man, but Elizabeth is pretty and when she tries to be a pirate it's cute, but when Will does, he's a bastard. Although I do think they'd have to at least tip their hats to him after he helped crush the Endeavor.

Then again, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's something about Elizabeth that makes the characters want to help her and be her friend. Elizabeth seems to be being modeled into a pirate by the other characters, both Jack and Barbossa seem to be taking on a fatherly role towards her in AWE. On the other hand, Will was sort of taken under Jack's wing during CotBP and Gibbs even seemed keen on sticking to Will and keying him in on certain points during CotBP. Maybe it was his innocence at the time that got to them, and now that he's growing more piraty on his own, they feel more jealous than anything and are now focusing on Elizabeth.

I dunno. I think I just confused myself there. :P

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I do believe there's a real P.C. sense of "we can't do certain things to her 'cause she's a girl" that doesn't apply to male characters. Would Elizabeth ever be tied to the mast and whipped? Would she be tied to a pole and dunked for torture? Would she get piss-drunk and fall or be thrown into hog slop? Would she be slapped by someone who felt she betrayed them? Would she be stabbed through the chest and have her heart carved out? Not likely, on all counts. And that's what sets her apart for me - she's been preserved from any real danger or threat to her being in these past two movies. I can't care as much about a character who can walk on water without falling through the surface (all religious references aside).

[erinya.livejournal.com]

I like Devious!Will. I mean, I understood why Elizabeth was pissed off at him about it, but it brought a new aspect to his character that I really enjoyed seeing. Because, as you know, I really like seeing the characters' flaws, it's interesting to me to see Will's jealousy and double-crossing, to see the knife turn, dark side and light.

And really, he's making all those decisions in order to keep an oath--the one he swore to his father. And it's not an oath he's kept secret, is it? So he has become a bit piratey in his willingness to let the ends justify the means, but he's still keeping to his own personal code. And so we get to find out a lot about the inner Will Turner--who has really always been looking for Bootstrap Bill, since the first moment we saw him. His father's absence is central to his psychology.

(I don't think that Will is entirely deprived of reward in the movie, though. You can see, in the exchange between himself and Bootstrap at the end, that this relationship has huge value for him--I don't think he's interested in being part of the Brethren the way Elizabeth is. And he does get Elizabeth, as well. But there is a cruel irony in the way that, in order to be reunited with his father, he has to leave his own son fatherless for at least ten years.)

Although Will and Elizabeth are not very much alike, I think the reason their detractors respond to them this way is the same. People who didn't like them in the first place--often without much more justification than that they get in the way of a favored 'ship--seize on their flaws as reasons to hate them even more. There's also the possibility that because they are seen as "the good guys," expectations are set higher for them. Of course, it's clear if you're paying attention that there really are no traditionally "good" guys in these movies...

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

And he does get Elizabeth, as well.

Consider this: He doesn't get her any more often than she gets him. And she gets a kid out of the deal (I always presumed, anyway, that they probably planned to have kids), AND she can go where she wants anytime. He cannot - for being a demigod, he's rather limited in how he can travel or move about. AND if she cheats on him, it's unlikely he'll punish her for it - that's just not Will's style. So I think she's definitely in the power position, of the two of them. AND she can die someday, which is a liberation in itself.

Don't get me wrong - I'm feeling a lot more kindly toward Elizabeth these days, honestly. But I don't get the outcry of "poor Lizzie!" just because she's female. That doesn't figure into my analysis of characters or people. I certainly don't blame bad stuff that happens to me on lack of a penis - usually, it can be traced back to something I myself have done or a position I've put myself into. *shrug*

[gryphons-lair.livejournal.com]

This answer just popped into my brain, partly due to a running discussion on the Lois McMaster Bujold mailing list, so it may be complete crack, but here goes:

It's possible what's happening here is a hero-analog to the madonna/whore dichotomy. (IE: all women are either pure, virgin (or faithful) Madonnas or Whores, and if they're the latter they're fair game for anything men want to do to them.)

Call it the Hero/Scoundrel dichotomy.

In COTBP and for most, if not all, of DMC, Will is clearly the Hero. He willingly sacrifices himself to save Elizabeth without any expectation of reward, and no matter how badly anyone treats him, he still acts honorably to all concerned. Even at the very end of DMC, he agrees to try to rescue Jack, even though he almost certainly believes it will mean he loses Elizabeth. Classic Hero behavior, that.

Jack, obviously, is the Scoundrel, and thus it's acceptable for him to lie, misrepresent, trick, and generally manipulate anyone and everyone. But he's not a Villain because his Intentions Are Good. (IE: he's a Good Man despite all the trickery.) However, it is generally acknowledged that he can expect some negative consequences from his trickery, Will cold-cocking him with the oar in COTBP being the most obvious example.

So when the Hero starts adopting the Scoundrel's tricks, he forfeits Hero status, because he can only remain the Hero as long as he complies with every aspect of that role. (In the same way that even a rumour of Sue the Madonna having a one-night stand can drop her into Whore status.)

Thus, Will resorting to trickery to get his way "proves" that he wasn't a Hero all along. Which causes people to react extremely negatively, because he's not only stepping out of his "official" role of Hero, he's trying to usurp the Scoundrel role, which clearly "belongs" to Jack.

Does that make any sense at all?

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Thus, Will resorting to trickery to get his way "proves" that he wasn't a Hero all along. Which causes people to react extremely negatively, because he's not only stepping out of his "official" role of Hero, he's trying to usurp the Scoundrel role, which clearly "belongs" to Jack.

Hmm. That's a good point. So, it's sort of like real life - if you're a bad guy or a grump, or just a dickhead, you can get away with anything because people's expectations are low, and any good thing you do goes toward redeeming you. But if you're good to begin with, you can't step out of that without dashing people's hopes about you. I get that - what I still don't understand is how there are people who don't think Will has the right or reason to turn against Jack, et. al.

[klear0bsession.livejournal.com]

Before I say much here, I will admit I dislike Elizabeth...but only in DMC and AWE (more so in DMC) and I will admit this is largely do to the insane Sparrabethers that appeared due to her differing characterizations. In AWE I just felt she could never quite get a grip back on the character. BUT that doesn't mean I need to call her names or pretend she doesn't exist (or shouldn't).

That said, I felt Will was one of the strongest characters in all three films, and very much so in AWE. No matter how much trickery he used (which frankly impressed me) he still had ultimately self-less goals, which is nothing any of the other characters can say. He always wanted to help either Elizabeth or Bootstrap. The two people in canon he truly loves (or wants to love). In the end he got both in a way, but paid a dear price for it. Most amazingly in my opinion he comes across as the strongest character in the end. He faced the worst fate of all of them, and took it up without a moments hesitation. The moment the Dutchman rises after the maelstrom takes my breath every time I've seen this film. Will Turner is gone in that moment. Captain William Turner is in his place and he knows what he is doing. No more questions, no more pressing motives. In that moment he knew he had what he was after and what place he had in what in a few short minutes the world had become. Never bitter. No longer angry (well, wishing destruction on Beckett doesn't count). His character had the strongest ending in the film.

I know that technically in all three films Elizabeth is the protagonist. But in AWE, it really felt like Will took over that role. So anyone that doesn't like it obviously does not understand the character, or has simply decided to live in a Will vs Jack world, and chose Jack.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I think Will is a lot like his fans that I've seen. *G* He treads the line between wanting to be high-minded and maintain his dignity, and his need to stoop every so often to accomplish his ends (for him, it's more noble - saving people - than for us, who just want to occasionally snark back at the rest of fandom). And that's actually quite human.

And yes, Will moves the action along in AWE. He's the one who negotiates the travel supplies and maps from Sao Feng, he's the one who brings Feng to the Pearl (and Beckett, by proxy). Lizzie declares war - which she couldn't have done without someone putting her in the power to do so, however.

[solitaryraven.livejournal.com]

Basically, I think that Will just can't win with certain closed-minded people. It's okay, actually it's extremely interesting and exciting when all of the other characters do it even for selfish reasons, but when Will does it, it's not okay.

Hypocrites.

I also think that some people might have had trouble following along with exactly what was going on, especially where Will's motivations were concerned, so it might have been hard for people to see past "Will betrayed Jack but Jack still sacrificed his own goal for Will, so obviously Jack is the better character."

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I must say, Will's not the one who proposed it - but I was amused by how quickly he agreed for Jack to be swapped to the Dutchman for himself, in the Parlez scene. Nice little homage to Jack trying to trade his soul to Jones in DMC.

I just think you have to be a special kind of blind or stupid to think *Will* is the amoral one in these movies at any point, compared to most other characters.

[venusinchains.livejournal.com]

I'm about to run out the door, so (lucky you!) you're getting the very short version:

I'm mostly in agreement with gryphons_lair on this, but from more of a shippers point of view. I'm fairly sure all of the negative commentary I've read (about either Liz or Will, though I'm concentrating on Will here) has come from folks who ship J/E. And you've pointed out that as the Good Guy, Will is grossly miscast as a pansy (and if Jack is your shining example of all that is right with the world, this opinion has a warped kind of logic to it).

In AWE Will is obviously trying to emulate Jack (the reasons why don't really matter for this argument), and - I think - he's successful. Add to that Jack's emulation of Will ("Think like the whelp" [I love that it seems to be his pet name for Will :-p]) and you can't miss the coming together of the two (if ever so slightly). This, from a shippers pov, makes Will genuine competition (if you're in the habit of disregarding the obvious overtures of love that Will and Liz display for each other). And now he's a demigod (with the option to go rogue, as Davy did - if Liz gave him reason to) and Jack is blithely drinking rum in his dingy. *smirks* I can see why some would categorize him as evil incarnate.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

"Think like the whelp" I love that it seems to be his pet name for Will

Oh, and Will would be SO pissed off by that if he knew. LOL

This, from a shippers pov, makes Will genuine competition

What, for Jack's affections? I'll buy that; I always have. I've always seen Will as the center of any jealousies surrounding these three, not Elizabeth. SHE may consider herself the center of the world of everyone she knows, but I never have. (And I must say, my respect for her increased greatly once she realized this after talking to Bootstrap - she has been acting like nobody else has difficult choices to make, except for her. She's forced to realize at that point that Will has them, too, and decides to quit being angry with him for his double-dealing.)

[the-dala.livejournal.com]

And you've pointed out that as the Good Guy, Will is grossly miscast as a pansy (and if Jack is your shining example of all that is right with the world, this opinion has a warped kind of logic to it).

You know my very favorite thing about this mentality? That the Girl ending up with the Good Guy is SUCH a CLICHE oh my GOD...but the Girl choosing the Bad Boy (and usually reforming his rum-and-salty-wenches ways) is a totally and completely original statement. Picture one of Geoffrey Rush's magnificent eye-rolls in place of my face right now.

[gryphons-lair.livejournal.com]

Totally hijacking the post, here, but anybody want to take bets how long it is after the DVD comes out that we see a vid of Elizabeth to G&S's "I am the Pirate King"? *VBEG"

[philosophercat.livejournal.com]

I wanted that as soon as I saw the film! ^_^

[elibad.livejournal.com]

Dear God, yes please! I'd even provide the song, if I could get 'Megaupload' to work.

I have been waiting for this since the whole Pirate King thing was first leaked. Why? Because 'it 'tis, it 'tis a glorious thing, to be a Pirate King'. *geeks out to show tunes*

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I do not know the song; is that "Pirates of Penzance?"

[elibad.livejournal.com]

I have no idea why Will and Elizabeth are so reviled. Elizabeth is not my favorite character, but I don't actively dislike her (mostly). Part of my problem is the actor and part of it is the over-the-top romance heroine aspect of her character, especially in DMC and AWE. But I have spent significant amounts of time desperately trying to understand her actions in DMC that came across so OCC for me, not sure I would have done that for a character I didn't like.

As for Will and his evil plottings, the think I liked about the way it played out in AWE was that it was still, ultimately, Will (not sure who to thank for that, but compared to Elizabeth's 'crisis' of character in DMC, it's a freaking miracle).

Yes, he was plotting and planning, but he was always pretty up front about it, especially the reasons, and always willing to 'accept the consequences of his actions'. So basically he was 'pirating' noble-ly, as much as one can.

With Jack, his actual motives are murky, so while we know he's plotting, your never sure exactly what he's up to. But with Will, it's obvious what he's doing. It makes it easier to revile him for it, Jack's misdoings can be wanked away.

And really, doesn't Will just plot to get the 'Pearl' early on? After that isn't he just pretty much caught up Jack's, Beckett's, Sao Feng's, and so on and so forth's schemes? Again?

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Elizabeth is not my favorite character, but I don't actively dislike her

It's an odd phenomenon that something you can learn to accept in canon is corrupted by fannish intepretation. I got so tired of having her goddess-like qualities shoved down my throat for so long after DMC that her fans actually turned me against her. To me, she's a character like any other subject to the same standards as the other characters. Period. I do not give her a free pass for being female, nor do I hold her to some imaginary higher standard.

But with Will, it's obvious what he's doing.

I wondered why his double-dealing worked in AWE - to me, he came across as a neophyte negotiator, not nearly on Jack's or Barbossa's level (and I honestly think that was the intention - it'd be odd if Will was suddenly the Master Manipulator). But maybe that's because people don't expect a pirate or those who consort with pirates to be upfront about their motivations? (Witness Murtogg and Mullroy in the first movie - "I think he's telling the truth ...")

[astria.livejournal.com]

I was never too much of a Will fan, anyway. ... *hides* I thought Elizabeth was crafty and a bit manipulative to begin with in CotBP, so what she did in DMC and AWE seemed like a progression of that. (She was obsessed with pirates from childhood, after all.) Will went from sort of an underappreciated sword maker to a person who was just "there". He had good intentions, but he wasn't able to do much on his own about them. He tried to fit in, but it didn't seem like he ever did much that wasn't immediately negated or twisted by someone else. He just isn't a good pirate. Then you get to the end of AWE and once again he apparently makes a decision but then the choice was taken away from him: the decision was pretty much made for him. (Not necessarily because Jack and Elizabeth put his hand on the dagger, but because it was the only way for him to "live".)

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I think it depends on how you define "pirate." Does he steal and cheat and lie well? No. Does he kill in cold blood? No. Does he appear to want to choose what happens to him and the people he loves, even if it's against the law? Yes. Everybody's idea of freedom in this is different, and his idea of freedom is making sure those he loves are free. (As for not doing anything - he's too busy holding down the moral anchor of the story that nobody else wants to take on because it's too boring - far more interesting to go haring off with pirates and drink and womanize, than to be the good guy. But I think we see this a lot in movies and books. *G*)

[jaydk.livejournal.com]

I love that Will is willing to use devious means to get what he wants -- in the world he's in, he knows he has to try everything possible to get what he wants. And what he wants is so intrinsically Will -- to save his father, to be with Elizabeth and keep her safe as well. One of my favorite scenes is the tea party with Davy Jones and Beckett -- he's playing with the big boys, and he gets what he wants. I also love that even though his terms are a cover for his plot with Jack, Will remembers to include his own safety as well as that of Elizabeth this time around ;-).

What really works for me, though, is that even though Will is willing to take these measures, he doesn't enjoy deceiving and betraying others -- unlike everyone else, he's not smug or triumphant about what he's doing; he's doing it because he must to save the ones he loves. The moment when Will's looking at his father's knife, when he's dropping the dead bodies over the side to lead Beckett to the Pearl and Shipwreck Cove -- he's so conflicted. There's just something really engaging about someone who loves others enough to do anything he has to in order to save them, even if it's wrong, but doesn't excuse himself for doing wrong in the process. (Unlike Miss "I had no choice" Elizabeth, for one.)

In the same vein, I don't think Will is doing what he's doing because he wants to be more "pirate-y" or more appealing, because I don't think Will thinks what he's doing is appealing. I think Will learns from Jack, but he doesn't take on his moral code or outlook on the world. He's still Will, IOW. Just Will with more options. ;-)

The thing that made the most impression for me about Elizabeth's big good-bye scene is how eager they all are to get her off the Pearl! It's like, well, your husband's Captain of the Flying Dutchman, so...you're leaving now, right, your Majesty? I think whether the Black Pearl crew is fond of Elizabeth or not, she's just way too much trouble for them, with all the speech-making and starting wars as the Pirate King and being married to Death and all. They're naught but honest pirates...;-)

[nevcolleil.livejournal.com]

I think whether the Black Pearl crew is fond of Elizabeth or not, she's just way too much trouble for them, with all the speech-making and starting wars as the Pirate King and being married to Death and all. They're naught but honest pirates...;-)

Heh! :D That's a funny way of putting it and you're exactly right!

[a-silver-rose.livejournal.com]

Honestly, the more I think about it, the less surprised I am that Will's gone off and used someone else to his own end, no matter how noble that end might be. After all, he didn't exactly break Jack out of jail in CotBP because he thought Jack was a great guy and totally innocent, did he?

As for why Will and Elizabeth are reviled? Because they are painted as intruders. Will, because he reminds us that Jack is not exactly the most noble guy on the planet (as well as posing a threat to any romantic relationship Jack and Elizabeth might have). As for Elizabeth, for all her character development, is essentially a Mary Sue, a type of character that, by definition, is an intruder, and an ill-respected one at that.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

All good points. Especially the part about breaking Jack out of jail - it was a deal to get what he needed, someone who could take him to where Elizabeth was being held.

[pir8fancier.livejournal.com]

I don't understand this polarization at all. Will was NOT a saint in CotBP. He LEFT Jack on the Isla de Muerta, right? And what everyone is forgetting is that Will does none of this "slight of hand" for himself. It is all to free his father. Whereas, Jack's machinations always (for the most part are in his best interest and if other people benefit, find and good).

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I never said he was a saint - he's just morally better than the other characters, I believe, by and large.

[nevcolleil.livejournal.com]

I am such a Will fan that I can't fully comprehend Will-bashing :p But I'm certain that I'm not so far gone I can't consider the issue rationally and I don't see any rational explanation for any of the reasons people give for not liking Will. Their bias seems wholly a defense of their preferences - like they can support their favorite characters by putting down characters that are dissimilar. I think Will's characterization in AWE was just right. I don't think he was every weak or 'wimpy' before, and I don't think he ever purposefully or needlessly caused someone harm now. I was shocked by Will's fate and am a little sad about what he's going through. But I'm also fascinated by the possibilities of his being the Flying Dutchman's captain and an immortal Will is a Will we never have to say goodbye to, so I'm all for that :p

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

That's a very good point; we can write stories about Will in present day, in just about any time period after when he "dies" if we'd like. Positive way of looking at it.