Eunuchy, snip snip!

[veronica_rich]

Some of the more entertaining ideas floating around about Will, and my quick-n-dirty responses (as I am at work);

1. He's a pansy. Ah, no. Sorry. Nobody avoids drowning that many times just to be called a wimp. Physically, he's been through almost as much as Jack in this series thus far, and while many of us might call Jack's walk "sissy," there's few if any who would refer to he himself as that way.

2. Life as his wife would be oppressive and traditional. Again, where does THIS come from? Certainly not canon. I don't know of many 18th-century suitors who taught their highborn girlfriends all their fencing moves, or expect a society lady to know how to shoot a rifle or hold her own in a physical altercation. If anything, Will's both young enough to grow old with (not being 20 years older, he won't kick off first, as men are wont to do even at the same age) and to be flexible for making up their own unusual lifestyle.

3. Will's an asshole because he tricked Jack and lied in the first movie. Yes, because Will's certainly alone in THIS respect. Everyone else is pure as snow. LOL. All I can remember him doing along these lines is knocking Jack in the head with an oar, after the man refused to give him a direct answer regarding saving a woman's life AND had spent their entire time together plotting to use Will as leverage for his own ends without admitting or explaining this sufficiently to Will, and without Will's consent (from Will's POV). If Will had done nothing else ever for Jack, he broke him out of jail and helped him sail out of Port Royal; Jack could've knocked him in the head and dumped him in the ocean after that point. Maybe if Will had kissed Jack before he knocked him in the head, that would make people feel better? Would me. *G*

4. The Holy Duality, Part Un: Will's an asshole and a pansy ... but he's unselfish and noble enough to give up the woman he loves for his chief rival to move right in. ROFL! Delusional, much? Either he's a jerk or he's not. Decide.

5. The Holy Duality, Part Deux: It's wrong to say Jack would never settle down with a woman, because he's human and needs love! ... but Will ought to be content sailing around for 900 years without a romantic partner, escorting sailors to their deaths. Was Will outfitted with robot parts when I wasn't looking? When did POTC turn into A.I.? (Then again, as long as THAT movie was, there might've been a hidden POTC plot somewhere in there.) Again, either you admit Jack and Will are both human with needs (as human as a movie character can get, that is), or neither of them are.

Hey, I'm a Will community moderator. This sort of thing is in my job description. *G*

Comments

[philosophercat.livejournal.com]

Re: 1. and Jack. Never seen Will hiding behind the stairs at the mere idea of the kraken. ^_^

Where'd this stuff come from, again?

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

It's an amalgamation of things I've seen in different forums over the past several months (frankly, some of it goes back almost four years).

And no, Will didn't hide behind anyone. Notice how Jack's hiding behind *Barbossa*, of all people, in that one AWE still? LOL

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

Like I said this morning: I heart OT3. *G*

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Seems like the best idea to me. Everyone gets a little (or a lot) of what they want! (Did you see that Spanish (?) language video fabu posted some time ago on her LJ from YouTube? It's a pretty explicit OT3 played out with two men and one woman - and not in the traditional "hur hur, we're two VERY STRAIGHT MEN both doing one woman" manner?)

Of course, there are all kinds of OT3s ....

[wicked-swann.livejournal.com]

I will never, ever understand why people think Jack is better than Will. Jack can't be trusted any further than you can throw him (maybe less than that) and he is willing to sacrifice absolutely anyone to save his own skin. Will will go to the ends of the earth - literally - to save someone he cares about, and is incredibly noble and daring. The times when he has been less than honest it has been out of sheer necessity, or even lack of another choice.

A pansy? I don't get it. He's way less of a pansy than Jack.

BTW - I do like Jack. I am just OVER him.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Somewhat, I agree about Jack - I'm over him being worshipped and praised for traits that, in a less lovable character, would be despicable (same goes for another character who shall remain nameless). Notice this doesn't carry to Johnny - I think what he's doing with Jack is great, given what he has to work with (a studio with "family values," writers and a producer and director all at odds as to what needs to be in the story); frankly, all the actors and actresses have made this vehicle worth watching time and again. But yeah, I'm a wee bit over Jack's "asshole" act. I get that he's a selfish git - but he's also other, better things, as we learned in CotBP, and I want to see that Jack again.

[hippediva.livejournal.com]

Number 5 just makes me laugh. No, little chickies, it's wrong to say Jack would ever settle down to being castrated by a teenager, because that is what ALL MEN want according to the Gospel-politan. *GUFFAW*

Maybe it's because secretly, they ALL wanna be Depp's daughter: wielding absolute power from the dollhouse.

DADDY! I want a drink of water. Daddy, I want a porsche. Daddy, I want your soul and your balls. And why you're packing them up, can I have a new Bratz doll?

BWAAHAAAAAHAAAAAA!

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Aww, we all have our fantasies. I've no problem writing, with a straight face, Jack hanging on to Will as a matelot for a long while. And knowing Will, he would probably club Jack with an oar if he caught him with his hand somewhere else it oughtn't be, no matter what he *knows* about Jack's chances for fidelity. *G* At least THAT part is in-character!

[venusinchains.livejournal.com]

What more is there to say? As we've seen, even the writers are a bit shocked and dismayed with the way most of the characters are envisioned by some fans. My initial response to your responses:

#1: Thank you for pointing that out! (That's been in my head off and on since seeing the "Will's a pansy" icon - Hasn't there been one circulation for ages that reads: "My Fandom runs like a sissy" over a pic of Jack?)

#2: For those who just don't want her on land.

#3: Don't forget: Will's a filthy cheat because he let Tia touch him in her cabin (in front of everybody). *snort*

#4: The spoilers say he does give her this choice (don't know if it'll be in the movie). They also say she can make up her own mind.

#5: Both Orlando and Keira have said they don't plan to come back for the proposed PotC4. So it doesn't matter how human any of them are, the producer is going to leave Jack at loose ends to keep the possibility of PotC4 open (with just Johnny committed to it). And I think neither Jack nor Will are as "human" as Liz, so she needs to track down Norrington and make good on her original promise to him. :-p

[gryphons-lair.livejournal.com]

And I think neither Jack nor Will are as "human" as Liz, so she needs to track down Norrington and make good on her original promise to him. :-p

Geeze, hasn't the poor man suffered enough?

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

#3: Don't forget: Will's a filthy cheat because he let Tia touch him in her cabin (in front of everybody). *snort*

Oh lord. LOL. I haven't actually seen that one, and I'm glad of it. My eyes would probably roll up off my forehead and back onto the floor.

Hasn't there been one circulation for ages that reads: "My Fandom runs like a sissy" over a pic of Jack?

Yes. The difference, of course, is that it's easy to see that it's meant affectionately. Trust me, there's no affection behind "pansy." ;-)

#4: The spoilers say he does give her this choice (don't know if it'll be in the movie). They also say she can make up her own mind.

And, she doesn't look any too happy with Will through the movie in some clips so far, so it's not as though she's trying to uphold and continue some facade by pledging herself to him. Clearly she's pissed off with Will and expresses it at one or more points; I don't think any promise she'd make after all that would be essentially dishonest. (I do wonder if she can keep such a promise once the ten years drags on, or if he wouldn't forgive her if she did "slip up" with another man. I think Will probably has some supernatural element to him that would allow him to "tell" if she's been ultimately unfaithful in her heart, or just her body. Because let's face it, Lizzie seems to regard love and romance more like a man usually does.)

#5: Both Orlando and Keira have said they don't plan to come back for the proposed PotC4.

I think a lot of fans feel they'll miss it later on, or their careers won't ever be as good as what they are now, and they'll want to reprise those roles. And who knows, they might well do it. But I have a hard time believing either one really wants to. I've had a couple of really good jobs in my life, but when I'm done with them, I'm FINISHED. Done, goodbye, time to move on, seek greener pastures, etc. It's a certain mindset that not everyone understands or appreciates.

[hippediva.livejournal.com]

*insane giggling* My JackMuse reacted to this: And I think neither Jack nor Will are as "human" as Liz, so she needs to track down Norrington and make good on her original promise to him. :-p

He says "Bugger the girlie and leave my commodore alone you tacky beyotch!"

CAT FIGHT!

[pir8fancier.livejournal.com]

Send that pansy-assed, oppressive, traditional, lying asshole my way, you hear? I'll deal with him...

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Um, sure. Right after I'm done "dealing" with him, you betcha ...

[gryphons-lair.livejournal.com]

If Will had done nothing else ever for Jack, he broke him out of jail and helped him sail out of Port Royal; Jack could've knocked him in the head and dumped him in the ocean after that point.

Um, no, he'd have had to wait at least until they dropped anchor in Tortuga. Remember "I can let you drown, but I can't sail this ship into Tortuga all by myself, savvy?"

And there's an assumption implicit in #5 that everyone seems to be overlooking. To wit: Why couldn't Elizabeth visit Will on the Dutchman? As far as we know, no one is forbidden to go on board the Dutchman, Will's just forbidden to go on land. So they could be making whoopie every weekend in Will's cabin, if they wanted, and Will and Elizabeth could (theoretically) have 8 or 9 kids by the time he sets foot on land again.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Um, no, he'd have had to wait at least until they dropped anchor in Tortuga.

Well, okay - he could've slit his throat and dumped him in the harbor, then. Happy? ;-)

Why couldn't Elizabeth visit Will on the Dutchman?

I'm pretty sure you probably need to be dead or dying to stay on there. Then again, maybe you just need the captain's permission (I was never sure if that was the case with Will, or if Tia somehow "touched" him with an immunity spell). At any rate, we see Davy can leave his ship for others, so if nothing else, Elizabeth could get her own ship (score!) and Will visiting her (another score!) regularly. Wouldn't this make Elizabeth fans happy? It would be and I'm not even a great fan of hers.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

ME, not "be."

[jaydk.livejournal.com]

4. The Holy Duality, Part Un: Will's an asshole and a pansy ... but he's unselfish and noble enough to give up the woman he loves for his chief rival to move right in.

. The Holy Duality, Part Deux: It's wrong to say Jack would never settle down with a woman, because he's human and needs love! ... but Will ought to be content sailing around for 900 years without a romantic partner, escorting sailors to their deaths.

Oh, those two just KILL me. I hate the idea that Will, the most altruistic character in the movies, who only seems to want to save others, should end the films by being cursed -- hello, a far worse fate than simply living in celibacy for a while but going on with your life in most other ways. And on top of that, he's expected to give his life with Elizabeth to his rival? Why don't they just nail Will to a crustacean cross and have done with it?

The idea doesn't even make any sense, because how in the world is it up to Will what Elizabeth decides to do with her life? It's ELIZABETH. Has she ever not done what she wanted to do? Will can say anything he wants, but in the end, Elizabeth is going to do what Elizabeth wants to do, as always. If she loves Will enough to hang in there and wait for him -- well, that's what she's going to do. It's not Will's decision in the least, actually.

Plus, then you get the whole concept that Jack actually wants to settle down with a woman, which frankly seems hugely OOC to me...

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Why don't they just nail Will to a crustacean cross and have done with it?

Because they need the wood to build Lizzie's ship.

If she loves Will enough to hang in there and wait for him -- well, that's what she's going to do. It's not Will's decision in the least, actually.

Silly me, that's what I thought being an independent woman was all about. Here I've been making my own life-altering decisions for 17 years, when I could've just asked someone to do it for me!

[elessil.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry, you lost me in giggle-fits at snip-snip. I'm easily amused.

That said, you have a point with these. (but really, how much more boring is that? Won't make me a fan, but no point bashing the poor lad)

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Nobody expects miracles, dear. It someone managed to catch one drop of your drool over Will from watching AWE and bottle it, it could be sold as holy water. ;-)

[elibad.livejournal.com]

4 and 5 kill me. Kill me, I tells ya.

I read something, somewhere, that stated that the Will as CotFD and Jack and Elizabeth together in adulterous bliss was the best ending for everyone. Jack and Elizabeth are together and in lurve, and Will, well, he loves Elizabeth so much, seeing her happy would make him happy. So, everyone is happy.

I just about sprained an eyeball, they rolled so hard.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

And, and there are bunnies! And daisies! And kittens gamboling in the meadow! Oh, and Will comes within range of the shore every weekend to give Lizzie and Jack's kids swimming lessons at the beach!

[erinya.livejournal.com]

This is like the list of Ways to Lose at Characterization. *g*

It's wrong to say Jack would never settle down with a woman, because he's human and needs love! ... but Will ought to be content sailing around for 900 years without a romantic partner, escorting sailors to their deaths.

Oh, this one sounds familiar today! The Woobification of Jack Sparrow: a Tragedy in Umpteen Acts.

2. Life as his wife would be oppressive and traditional.

Only if they somehow didn't make it out of Port Royal society and didn't have a good income, but in that case it wouldn't really be Will that would be the problem, but their circumstances. Will's battle cry is "Elizabeth goes free," after all...

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

LOL!

Maybe you can pass around a plate, start taking up a collection to keep the Church of Sparrabeth doors open after AWE ... or, you know, the co-pay on psychiatric counseling for some of those girls (excuse me - women - we all know they're much older than us Will fans) who are admitted to the wards after unsuccessfully slitting their wrists ...

[klear0bsession.livejournal.com]

I don't really know what else to say that hasn't already been said, but no matter how various fans feel about certain characters, irrational characterizations are useless to everyone.

I adore Will. I giggle at Jack. I think the story would be more interesting and fun without Disney's family values, and the girl. Luckily, it's already interesting and fun!

Will has such a strong presence and I think I could honestly say he is the only character that actually seems to grow and change in these films in a way that I like. Dark!Will, and Captain!Will intrigue me more so than almost any other character at this point. I am interesting in exploring the reactions of other characters to the Will that we appear to be preparing to be left with at the end of AWE.

I've said it elsewhere, but why close doors on characters? As fans, we can take things where ever we want. The more twists and turns and conflicts and banter left to play with the better and more interesting our work can be.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Once upon a time, I loved all the characters equally; even though I wrote Turrow, I could read anything, anyone (well ... Will/Weatherby is asking a *bit* much of me), anytime. Now I'm not so liberal and that's a shame. And I refuse to take full blame for it.

[solitaryraven.livejournal.com]

Ahh, I'm so glad that I found people on LJ to bitch with about the PotC fandom. Amen to just about everything you have said. I love the "Will will tell Elizabeth to be with Jack" one. So delusional. Would someone who wants JE together really want them together just because Will told Elizabeth too. They're basically accepting that Elizabeth loves Will, not Jack, because they're saying that Will has to tell Elizabeth to be with him, but at the same time they're saying that it's really Jack that Elizabeth loves and she's just in "extreme denial." Umm, yeah either we're not all watching the same movie or Elizabeth's not the one in denial.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Would someone who wants JE together really want them together just because Will told Elizabeth to

Yes. I do believe that's the consensus.

There's denial going on here, but it's not Elizabeth. LOL ....

[starrdust411.livejournal.com]

I've heard that wimp comment before. The reason for it was because Will never successfully rescued Elizabeth, she either rescued herself or was saved by Jack. Call me old fashion, but if I guy put that much effort into trying to save my life, the word "wimp" would not be on the list of names for him.

I can almost see the reasoning behind #5 since T&T sort of made Will come off as having no sex drive with the whole "they've been practicing sword fighting for a year, nothing else" thing, but last I checked Jack and Will are still both humans :P

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

The reason for it was because Will never successfully rescued Elizabeth, she either rescued herself or was saved by Jack.

SHIT! I forgot The Holy Duality: Part Trois, and I'm glad you reminded me: If Will tries to save Elizabeth, he's an oppressive buttinsky who's trying to hold Elizabeth back. If Jack tries to save Elizabeth, it's romantic goosh. Thanks!

[ainsoph15.livejournal.com]

I think a major part of the ‘wimp’ accusation comes from people who see Will expressing emotion/love for Elizabeth, In some sick, twisted way, that translates into weakness. First impressions count for a lot, and when we first see Will, he’s all wide-eyed and unrequited, because let’s face it, he thinks he doesn’t have a hope in hell of ever being with her. Even when he is engaged to her, as Starrdust pointed out, there’s the whole ‘sword-practise for a year and nothing else’. Heaven forfend that Will should treat Elizabeth honourably, rather than try to get in her pants straight away. Will isn’t sexually aggressive in the way that Jack is. Will doesn’t paw at Elizabeth, or flirt with her. That isn’t to say he doesn’t express passion for her; he does, most definitely. It’s simply that the way he expresses affection for her is uncomplicated. He’s never trying to manipulate or seduce her; he’ll kiss her, honestly, ardently, but without any intent to get any more out of her.
*sigh* What was that about ‘a pirate, and a good man*. I think Badass!Will in AWE is going to showcase how you can be a rogue, but still a gentleman. Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to have a problem with gentlemanly behaviour, as though it is somehow oppressive. I never realised that being polite and respectful was the same as disenfranchising women. Hell, I thought it was just about having good manners, and behaving appropriately.
You learn something wack every day ;)

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

He’s never trying to manipulate or seduce her; he’ll kiss her, honestly, ardently, but without any intent to get any more out of her.

I can understand Elizabeth being fascinated with Jack - he's different from what she's used to, he's handsome and lives a worldly, well-traveled life. He's a legend and she's understandably starstruck. Plus, his style of flirtation is just that, whereas Will seems shyer and more hesitant to "just jump into it." What made her responses to Jack OOC were the brazenly blatant nature of them, given she didn't know whether Will was alive or dead at the time. He and Will are not the same kind of man, and I honestly believe if Lizzie threw Will over for Jack, she'd regret it inside of two years. One person cannot be all things; I can't imagine any wife would say her husband is perfect or fulfills all her needs all the time (I don't mean sexual necessarily). There's something you give up to get what you want, at every step in life, and - not to sound too much like my grandma - I think that's something the up-and-coming young generation hasn't been taught, by and large. Most think they can have everything without personal sacrifice because Mom and Dad are afraid to let them go without or say "no."