What a fan wants

[veronica_rich]

This is going to smack slightly of reduxing elibad's recent post in one of my communities titled What A Will Wants, but I hadn't looked at it in two weeks (or whenever it was posted) and actually had to go looking for it, for the URL, when I thought of this, just to make sure I wasn't completely copying her post.

This is not a spoiler, for I really know nothing about the outcome of AWE, and I think it's speculation that everyone by now has heard about Will - becoming captain of the Flying Dutchman. (So I'm not putting it behind a cut.) And I tend to believe a fellow fan who is neutral on the whole 'ship issue that this movie will go the way of traditional Disney fare, with the Hero and Heroine ending up together - in this case, Will and Elizabeth.

I want to get those out of the way. Let's just think about Will, alone, for this post. I was reading another community and for the 1,233,234th time it was brought up whether he would end the movie with Elizabeth. And that got me to thinking: How much do I really care if he makes up with her or not? I'm not belitting any fan who really wants this. I'm not even belitting any fan who really wants to see him on the Flying Dutchman ... though frankly, I think that's become more of a "default" position for those of us who like Will, who would rather see that instead of a dead Will Turner (obviously this doesn't include the fans who just don't like Will and want him out of the way - but, I presume nobody would reply to this who doesn't like him at least a little, anyway *G*).

What would you like to see for Will after AWE? It can be more than one thing - a blacksmith and a pirate? A merchant sailor and a father? Please try to think of something other than who he'll end up with. Aside from a relationship with a romantic partner - or instead of it - what can you see WILL doing (preferably happily, or at least with some satisfaction)? I'd like to see him in the American Colonies or somewhere similarly "new" in terms of law and order, a place where he can reinvent himself and make his own little fortune based on his abilities, not his former social strata - perhaps running a metal/farrier/swordsmith shop and employing an escaped black family as paid employees to help him out. (Don't ask me why that last part popped into my head - I've learned with creative writing to just go with whatever shows up. Plus, I like that Will would totally do something like that.) I suppose he could also play some part in local politics/lawmaking, since he's a smart guy and has learned some savvy from Jack that I'd hate to see wasted only on work.

Comments

[pir8fancier.livejournal.com]

Sigh. Because I truly and honestly believe that Will should end up with Elizabeth. Because he's loved her since he was thirteen-years old. One of *the* most charming scenes in any movie is in the first movie where he's so nervous he yanks the sconce off the wall. Why? Because of her.

So I see the two of them together. I do not see them in Port Royal. I think that is too confining for both of them at this point. Will, for realizing that there is an entire world out there where he is not the educated blacksmith who pines for Elizabeth Swann, and for Elizabeth as well. A world without corsets.

I see *both* of them in the New World, appropriately enough. Where opportunity is not *yet* dictated by class and status. It will in a few short years, but at this point in history, it is wide open.

[joey112.livejournal.com]

I think that Will might just find out that he's an artist. You know the creativity of the beautiful swords comes from somewhere. So I actually see him settling down, perhaps in the South Pacific and drawing and writing out his exploits.

[erinya.livejournal.com]

I want to see Will be his own man, rather than the man he thinks Elizabeth wants him to be. To make a decision because it's what he wants...not what anyone else wants or what he thinks he should want.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

You and me both. I think it's high time Will stopped doing anything for anyone, including commandeering ships to save people who can get themselves out of bad situations. *G*

As a final thought, on "Mind of Mencia" tonight, he's offering to answer any question women have about men. A woman raises her hand and asks, "Why are guys dicks?"

"Why are we dicks?" he answers. "Because you only fuck dicks. You women don't *want* a nice guy." He then goes on to explain that the nice guys, the ones who are faithful and true, are usually thrown over for assholes. (And, he's right, sadly. I've known too many women who want to reform the "bad boy" - I can only guess it's the challenge of it.)

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

*"He," of course, being Carlos Mencia. Not Will. (Now THAT would be a cameo appearance ...)

[pseudoblu.livejournal.com]

I want Will to be happy. I'm not at all against the idea of him settling in America but I dunno. I'd love him to be an artisan somewhere and Port Royale really does seem unlikely now. I'm very wary about the idea of him being the new Davy Jones, so if when that happens I hope he's able to get out of it somehow, maybe by his father taking it upon himself instead.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I like that idea. I think he would probably work with something more ... tangible? Bigger? For lack of a better word. You know, still metals and such, but maybe also the finer-detailed arts.

[erinya.livejournal.com]

Hee, I was confused there for a moment (Orlando on Mencia? What) but then I realized what you meant.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Where opportunity is not *yet* dictated by class and status.

The only problem with this (and yeah, I know, it was my idea) is that the only reason it works for Elizabeth is if she has no home left to go back to - which seems quite likely. If things work out well for the Governor or Port Royale, she'd actually be giving up a better life to go to the Colonies, since I'm pretty sure women had to wear corsets there, too. Abigail Adams aside, gender was still judged there, too. I guess she could break convention, especially if she's married to a merchant and doesn't really have to impress anyone except the occasional customer.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I would so watch that - especially if they got him to participate in a skit. It's sort of the same reason I wish he'd be on SNL - he has the live stage training and a sense of humor such that he ought to be able to do it well.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I think Bill ought to take the Dutchman, yes. Not only does he really owe it to his son, it would give him the opportunity to be the kind of captain he's witnessed Jones NOT being for 11 years.

[erinya.livejournal.com]

I guess I want to see him become more piratical and thus more of a bad boy in a way. But in the sense that the movies use the concept, as representative of freedom and individual destiny: to see him gain more of a sense of self and self-determination, rather than the selfless mission thing he keeps doing--the thankless Must Save Everyone gig. Like you say, they can take care of themselves. But who's taking care of Will? Not Will, certainly. And this is something pretty solid in his character, from the very beginning. We see it over and over again. He doesn't try to claim Elizabeth (in fact, even at the end of CotBP, she still is the one to claim him); he doesn't object or seem to mind that Mr. Brown takes credit for his artistry; he offers himself for Elizabeth, for Jack, for his father, for everyone but himself. It doesn't seem to occur to him that it might not have to be that way. And that selflessness is admirable, but it won't serve him well in the world of these movies--any better than it ever serves Jack, as it happens, which is why Jack is the man he is.

And Elizabeth does watch over him, to an extent--or she tries, or thinks she does; she stands up for him in CotBP and works to save his life in both movies. But she's much too piratical herself to make sure that he's not taking care of her in detriment to herself. I don't think it occurs to her that he is not like her. She takes what she can and gives nothing back, and assumes he'll take what he needs and wants, too. But Will gives all he has, and asks for nothing in return. It's a poor balance (not a balance at all, really) and it's the main reason why I have trouble seeing them happy together.

[erinya.livejournal.com]

Bless the Brits and their live stage training...we really aren't as much into that over here, and I think it shows that so many of our young actors just go straight to Hollywood and never stop for Shakespeare. (Except with our really virtuoso actors, like Depp; but I think he's still a screen, not a stage, talent, if a fabulous one. All the subtle acting he does with expression and gesture really demands a camera's eye to catch.)

[gloromeien.livejournal.com]

You've touched on something here that sort of needles at me about the Will/Elizabeth dynamic, which, though far from ideal, I think is the intended and appropriate ending. Even after all these months that they've apparently been spending time together, Elizabeth doesn't seem to understand very much about Will. She trusts him implicitly, but that's hardly more than a surface insight into his character, and, after all, he has always been socially inferior to her. But she doesn't seem to really know him, what's unique and wonderful about him, and that's an aspect to the relationship that's always needled me. I think it's basically due to poor writing more than anything, but the text we're given is the one we must interpret, so...

Excellent comments above, BTW.

-G. ;)

[erinya.livejournal.com]

...I just had this picture of Will in the middle of a garden of amazing iron-wrought sculpture, of sea creatures and mermaids and witches and dragons and knights on horses (or sea-horses) and other fantastical things, happily working away.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

There are good points here. Let me take a few, most of which I agree with:

He doesn't try to claim Elizabeth (in fact, even at the end of CotBP, she still is the one to claim him)

Here, I disagree. He's the one who tells Elizabeth that he loves her - in front of her father and her fiance, no less (and anyone in the crowd who cares to be listening). Then he's busy standing up for Jack - Elizabeth goes to him before he has a chance to say anything further to her. (You may be referring to the cave scene where Will misses the opportune moment, in which case I can only blame his youthful stupidity. *G*) I liked this balance - he misses an opportunity, but recognizes when the next one presents itself.

And as for "claim," isn't that a bit archaic and chauvinistic? "Me Og. You woman. MINE." Poor kid, he can't win for losing. ;-)

he doesn't object or seem to mind that Mr. Brown takes credit for his artistry

I don't think he *could* claim credit for it. He's still an apprentice, presumably indentured - if it got back to his master he was taking the credit (even if it was due him), he might suffer some sort of consequences. And Will doesn't have anywhere to go, unless he leaves Port Royal. Also, I think he does mind he's not getting the credit - look at his face when he goes to answer the Governor, the hesitation (presumably as he considers whether he ought to correct the notion, perhaps?). It's the same thing when Brown takes credit for capturing Jack.

which is why Jack is the man he is

I agree. It's also what makes Jack more compelling, that you don't know if his next move is going to be to save himself or to save someone else. Part of me wishes that in AWE Will would indicate to Elizabeth and Bill that they're on their own because he's too busy not being eaten by a big squid or sliced-n-diced by all the King's men. But ... then there's the part that likes that Will probably wouldn't do that. There needs to be more of a balance than we've seen so far, I guess.

I don't think it occurs to her that he is not like her

What I want to know is, what exactly is it about Will that she likes, anyway? Is it just that it's "forbidden" for her to have him? Is that what we're supposed to get from her possibly switching to Team Jack? Is it that Will was the most exciting thing in Port Royal, and now that she's seen a wider world, he's no longer that attractive to her? I don't know.

But Will gives all he has, and asks for nothing in return

Here, I have to speculate: Just because we haven't seen him do so doesn't mean he hasn't asked for anything. Then again, you may be right. He really does have so much potential to be a realistic cross between a good man and a selfish asshole - I just wish he'd hurry up and find it, already.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

That is a nice picture. And, to contradict myself in my own post (I know, I know), I don't think Will's the kind of person who would want to remain alone doing this. I think he'd be happy if there were someone to occasionally pat him on the head and praise his craftsmanship, such as a wife (or a same-sex mate, if you're into that sort of thing like I am).

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Agreed. What is it she SEES in Will? Is she so enamored with the long-held notion that he's a pirate - first fixed upon when he was a boy with the medallion - that she's missing other things about him that make him equally worthwhile?

[yoiebear.livejournal.com]

I want to see the character happy, whether that is with or without Elizabeth.
I could see him traveling to find his place and then making a name for himself once there. He still has the skills of blacksmith/swordsmith that could take him pretty much anywhere and, with the right word-of-mouth, could make him a rich man.

As for the Dutchman, I don't see Will being the captain. To be the captain, one must have an inconsolable broken heart and I don't think that is Will. He has lived without Elizabeth before and can again, doesn't mean he wants to, but it is possible, especially since he never thought he would have her in the first place.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Exactly. To be honest, part of what annoys me about the Will-as-Davy theory is that Will would be THAT pathetic, to cut out his heart. (There's another way he could assume command, by stabbing the heart, maybe? But for it to happen Davy's way is just ... not cool in so many ways.)

I'd rather see him alone and eventually happy doing something that he enjoys, you know?

[pir8fancier.livejournal.com]

I think the expectations of her as a governor's daughter in Port Royal would be nothing less than a straightjacket. As least in some place like the colonies, she wouldn't have that albatross of expectation around her neck. *Anywhere* gender is going to be an issue for her. But the rough and tumble of some place where the stakes aren't as deeply embedded yet...

[philosophercat.livejournal.com]

I think his soul is too high for anything settled. Even while he's a blacksmith, he's obviously restless. No one would train themselves so rigorously for combat if they did not wish to encounter it. He is a born leader with 'a touch of destiny,' and that sort of man can't stand at an anvil, or a counter all day. I'd like to see him go to New England as well. That's really the only place I can see him. He needs to lead, and he can do that there- possibly as an American privateer captain (dare I say it? ;) American privateers raided the Nova Scotian town my ancestors built ^_^ ). After the war I can see him settling into a respectable life on land, having proven himself. I can see politics too.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I like your vision. Determined and bold and decisive. (There is a J/W/E series floating around about them living in the Colonies during the Revolution, with Will actively participating in supplies-running and strategizing battles with the Americans. I like the way Will is portrayed in this one.)

[philosophercat.livejournal.com]

When I saw DMC again today (still couldn't find good clear shots of Bootstrap), I felt that there were undercurrents that he would take over: Jones saying he will be on the ship for all eternity, or something, after the dice game, and then how he wouls stand on the deck watching with his head up, rather than down in submission. Just tiny, tiny, tiny, things. Probably nothing at all, but I'd rather see that.

[philosophercat.livejournal.com]

Perhaps Weatherby might be able to pull strings to get them both some land, where they could rebuild their lives away from any criminal accusations they would face in Port Royal? It would be interesting to see them trying to temper zealotry on both sides vis a vis the Loyalists and Revolutionaries.