Yeah, I can tell it's May ...

[veronica_rich]

This makes the second troll my Will community has attracted from sparrabeth in the past month. (You've gotta scroll to the bottom of those pages for it.) Why do I think that? Oh, I don't know - just a hunch.

This wasn't a criticism of my writing style (which would be fair). It was simply an excuse to anonymously bitch in a minority forum and denounce anything that takes fan focus off Jack and/or Elizabeth.

And no, neither of these comments are particularly horrifying, but as it gets closer to May 23 and some J/E fans get meaner about not getting their way ... well, I haven't lived this long not to spot a problem a mile away. I don't want to have to resort to disabling anonymous commenting in a fan forum. Are there any community mods on my f-list who have dealt with this, with advice? I already made a short post asking "visitors" to the comm to be respectful of the members there, but I wonder if it'll work.

Geez o pete. I didn't realizing having a Will community would be like disagreeing with the Mafia! LOL


Seriously, I keep reading how J/E fans are so much older and more mature than us "13-year-old hormonal" Will/Orlando fans. Me no think so.

Comments

[yoiebear.livejournal.com]

In all honesty, I like all of the characters - some better than others, but I don't "hate" any of them. This especially goes for disliking someone because of their fan preferences.

In other words, the "mafia" can suck it.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Well, I don't care for canon J/E, but I feel like I've always bent over backwards to explain that I'm annoyed with the filmmakers' storytelling capabilities that made it unbelievable to me, and to so many other viewers. Not that I was against it if explained logically; not that I was against it in fanfic (a lot of which I read and comment upon); but that I was against it as it was poorly set up. Also, I don't care for Will-bashing. People tell me, "But you criticize Elizabeth!" Yeah - I criticize poorly-explained behavior in any fiction. Jack's, too. Norrington's, too. (I'll happily make an Anita Blake post about the latter five books, if someone asks. It would probably make my POTC-bitching look like faint praise in comparison.) Will's characterization didn't run off the tracks like theirs did, IMO.

[yoiebear.livejournal.com]

I agree with you about the poor characterization and set up for a J/E storyline. If that is how it is going to end I want a much better explanation as to why.
I don't care for character-bashing, in general. If you have a reason to dislike a character or what they have done, I want to know why. Not just because.
I have stayed as far away from that environment in the PotC fandom as I can simply because I have enough of that shit in my real life, I don't want it in the tools I use to relax.

[pir8fancier.livejournal.com]

I think, given the sort of intense "loyalty" that certain members of the sparrabeth community have displayed over the last few months, you are either stuck with disabling anonymous comments (which is the easiest and, frankly, because I hate the anonymity of hate, my preferred solution) or just ignoring the trolls who post here. I think asking for respect is like farting in a windstorm. The people who are going to be respectful don't need to be told and the people who are NOT, could care less. IMO.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Ignoring trolls who post here, I can take or leave (I think you meant "there;" that's how I'm going to take it, anyway) - but for a community, I think the members should feel like it's a happy space they can go to chill out and have fun - yet, they still manage, by and large, to keep their annoyances with characters outside of Will phrased decently. God knows the Sparrabethers say whatever comes into their fingers on their community, and have such massive numbers that who would disagree with them?

[erinya.livejournal.com]

I think disabling anonymous comments is probably the best way to prevent trolling.

Going to go back to writing my Mary Sue fics now...

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Going to go back to writing my Mary Sue fics now...

Hey, I've made no secret of my opinion on this over the past several months. It comes from female Elizabeth fans identifying so closely with her, making her their champion, wanting to be just exactly like her. I see a lot of middle-aged women who wish they were 20 again, and a lot of teenagers who wish they could get it on with Johnny.

And you know what? That's OK. I don't harsh anyone's squee until they start foot-stomping all over mine. Then I turn into a bitch. Is that okay only for Elizabeth?

Of course, I also make no secret of the fact that I prefer gay male porn. I'd far rather watch and direct, than participate. *G*

[philosophercat.livejournal.com]

Yeah- I thought that was a little too general to say they were all Mary-Sues, but from my experience in the OTHER JE fandom (Jane Eyre) I can see what you're getting at. Sexing up Jane Eyre is wrong on so many levels, but the vast majority of the vocal fans are eating it up with very obvious comments about only appreciating it for the 'hotness' etc. Those girls will probably be writing such Mary Sue J/E fic. There are others who do like the idea, and want to explore it. I did read some of the Erinya fic you pointed out as being really good. While I didn't take to it, I would say it falls into the exploration category. I didn't get any vibe that it was an 'I want to be Elizabeth' fantasy.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Yeah- I thought that was a little too general to say they were all Mary-Sues

It probably was; I make mistakes. Normally, I try to be careful about identifying who I am specifically talking to, but when it's six a.m. and the neighbors have awakened me with loud noise on my day off, I'm not inclined to give benefit of the doubt to a mealymouthed anonymous commenter, who couldn't be arsed to use even their psuedo online identity (really - do you think Veronica is my real name?) to whine at me about the clearly-stated pairing in the story. It'd be like me commenting on a J/E story to simply say "haha dumb pairing."

[philosophercat.livejournal.com]

I know how it is. Last time I bothered to see what JE (no /) fandom was up to, I saw the pathetic sight of a 50 year old woman chasing a professor from thread to thread, bashing absolutely everthing she said because said professor had once said- in an original post to a thread warning that she did not have a positive view of a particularly well-loved scene- that 'all' fans of the show were silly teenagers. I'm sure the prof was indulging in a little harmless exaggeration, at the tail of her post, but I'll bet she wishes she had just stayed out of the frey. I wasn't inclined to point out that, if 50-year-old fan doesn't want to be lumped in with teenagers, maybe she should not indulge in a one-person flame war crusade against someone else.

[erinya.livejournal.com]

And you know, I was having a moment of "OMG DUN GENERALIZE!" but I do think you have a valid and interesting point. The heavy identification and the wankiness/fanaticism is related to the Mary Sue phenomenon. I think that a major lure of the Mary Sue is that a certain proportion of female readership really do yearn for female characters to identify with, who get to be in the thick of the story and who are as cool and kick-ass as the male characters (who usually get to have all the fun and the swordfighting and the pirating and adventure--probably why LotR has such a rash of M-S's, although I glommed onto Eowyn in my day.) And yes, dally with the Preferred Sex Object, just like the classic male adventure hero--Indy, Bond, Conan--gets to do with the Hot Chick.

I think that Elizabeth IS that kind of character, which is at least one of the reasons why she's so compelling to so many fans, and why we (Elizabeth-fen) cling to her and defend her. (I certainly have a strong emotional/irrational reaction to Elizabeth-bashing, and have to breathe first, then respond.) But she's not a cardboard stand-in, although she has been used thus.

Meta aside, I'm really sorry that your comm has been receiving these rude comments. (It does happen on both sides, though I mostly get it at ff.net--not the same magnitude as someone coming into my personal comm or journal and leaving comments that "J/E sucks lol," or whatever.) As AWE draws closer, I'm really considering putting up a post in the Sparrabeth comm about courtesy. It's not like I have a huge amount of influence, and as someone else pointed out the ones who are disrespectful won't listen anyway, but I've been around long enough that most of the members know me and read my posts, and I feel like someone should say something. And as amusing as it might be, I really don't want to see my fellow fen on Fandom Wank...

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

As AWE draws closer, I'm really considering putting up a post in the Sparrabeth comm about courtesy.

I think that'd be a good idea. People who might be averse to cooperation, if they see maintainers of two communities doing it, might change their minds. (And really, why should a Will-only community be anathema to J/E? I can sort of understand the reverse if enough Will-comm fans are W/E ... but being a slash writer, I've tried to keep things more on-track focused on Will himself rather than lapsing entirely into J/W as I'd probably enjoy, or entirely into W/E, which would just invite wank. Plus, I like Will himself just fine.) It won't stop the occasional bitching about "that other place" or "that character," but I don't expect miracles - just a lessening of the overall tension.

[erinya.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm not a maintainer there, just a Senior Loudmouth. *g* But the moderator has a lot of RL stuff going on, so active members have to step in to self-police.

What I've found generally is that the good writers, regardless of pairing, put thought into all the characters and so are less prone to hate any of them unreasonably.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Oh well. If only two people whine at you, you'll have a better track record than me. It was a good post, but you're likely right that the people it really *bothers* probably don't need to read it anyway.

[erinya.livejournal.com]

I got one "But it's all for teh lolz!", one passive-aggressive "Do you have a JOB?", one "OMG SENSORSHIP!" (no idea what that is, sounds technical) and one "I guess I do that sometimes, but I'm trying to be better."

Everyone else has one version or another of "Thank God someone said it."

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

And those very people who are all "It's about the LULZ!" are the very first ones who'd either burst into tears or show their claws the very first time you picked on what THEY liked the same way they pick at you.

[captsparrow4evr.livejournal.com]

Hormonal? Yes. 13 years old? Not since before the original "Star Wars" came out (long before it was relabeled "A New Hope" or Greedo shot first.;)

Personally, I don't understand Will hate at all, unless you take it as an unconscious acknowledgement that Will and Elizabeth are in some fashion rivals for Jack's affections. As for getting meaner when one doesn't get one's way, well, it's a good thing most of us slashers aren't like that. I guess this means we'll have to go easy on the gloating when J/E dies its expected death. This is Disney after all.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I guess this means we'll have to go easy on the gloating when J/E dies its expected death.

If a J/E fan wants to take canon-destruction as the end of their fandom, they weren't much of a fan in the first place. There are plenty who wrote it before DMC and there are plenty who'll keep doing it after AWE. Unless, of course, Disney is fool enough to *make* it canon, in which case you can forget about POTC gen fandom - it'll become The Jack and Izzy Show. (On the bright side, any slash produced will be back in its orginal element: Subversive and wicked, and infinitely interesting, rather than sort of commonplace as it was before DMC. *G*)

[philosophercat.livejournal.com]

I didn't see anything inflamatory about the latest comment. I was confused by what they were referring to as 'rude.' As to the first comment, it's sad when people have to disguise their identity for a comment such as that. More than anything, it shows that the poster knows that they are just being vindictive. My one and only troll played that game on ff.net, reading through tons of my work, bashing it with such creative jibes as 'you use too many commas!' etc. until I required sigs. Then I got cryptic comments in cyrillic. Surprise, surprise, putting it through babblefish, I got more mundane editorial comments cloaked in the language of an irate and vicious 13 year old. Anyway, that was a rant- but it sounds like there's a few people out there with axes to grind.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I didn't see anything inflamatory about the latest comment.

And, as I already noted, neither did I. But the fact is, I posted that same story on my LJ at the same time, and they could've easily come over and said the same thing to me there. What other point would there be to making a comment in a Will-centric community that pointedly excludes Will - other than making the point "You don't matter"? It wouldn't work on my personal LJ, because it's general commentary/blogging.

Anyway, I just want to throw up a roadblock that says "Whoa, watch how you behave" before it gets to a point where we've become a doormat. I've seen this happen on a couple of mailing lists before, when the mods had an open-door policy and were stomped all over by trolls - when, if they'd nipped it in the bud, it wouldn't have become the sort of problem that ended up disbanding the mailing list (which one of them did).

[philosophercat.livejournal.com]

I didn't know how to handle it when the same sort of over-zealous fans joined lero either. It was a cosy little place where my friends and I discussed our favourite fictional man... Until the new Jane Eyre came out. The flame hit the tinder as SOON as one of us wrote a totally ordinary review saying they didn't like it. "Well, everyone I know likes it!" (so, what's wrong with you?). It totally killed the atmosphere there... I also got demands from them to change the decorating- they wanted their new and improved sexy actor to be displayed instead of the more talented but less pretty ones we had up. Not much goes on there now... just icontests. It's kinda sad. Even I feel reluctant to burst the bubble and say, gals, admit it... it wasn't the most amazing thing on the planet... it wasn't... *gasp* perfect. I just hope that in time the rabidness will wear off...

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

The flame hit the tinder as SOON as one of us wrote a totally ordinary review saying they didn't like it. "Well, everyone I know likes it!" (so, what's wrong with you?).

You've SO struck the nail on the head for POTC after DMC.

[philosophercat.livejournal.com]

Some of us oldtimers have referred to this as 'having one's whiskers singed.'

[philosophercat.livejournal.com]

Whoops,, I meant l_e_r_o

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

I'd disable anonymous comments, for sure.

I don't understand the Will hate that's out there -- he's a great character, and my preference would be for all of them to end up together, somehow. But the filmmakers messed that up pretty thoroughly.

But that's why we have fanfic, isn't it? ;)

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

But the filmmakers messed that up pretty thoroughly.

Being Disney, I really don't see how they could put them all together in acceptable fashion for the mass of moviegoers. For all the "daring" labels tossed around about POTC, it's really just "boy v. boy for girl" like a lot of its other Princess movies.

But that's why we have fanfic, isn't it? ;)

One of the many reasons, yes ....

[philosophercat.livejournal.com]

So, she thought the pairing was rude? It's possibly the same person as before, unwilling to fight it out with you on the previous comment thread.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

You mean geek_mama_2? No, she wouldn't comment anonymously, and she wouldn't comment just to complain at a fellow writer.

[philosophercat.livejournal.com]

How did my reply get here? o_O I meant to reply to our thread above, about the latest comment.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

*the light bulb goes on*

I suppose the anonymous commenter could be one and the same. Who can tell? That's sort of the point of anonymonity, I guess. ;-)

My annoyance comes largely in being proven right on the first comment. When I first read it weeks ago, my immediate thought was that someone from that specific J/E community had surfed over, but I couldn't prove it, so, you know - whatever. Lo and behold, I go there the very same day and the post from my community had been copied over to an entry there - pretty much proving my suspicion was correct.

[philosophercat.livejournal.com]

It is disheartening to find you're right about something like that, as one still hopes people can play together in a fandom. Fandom is supposed to be fun, right? Why does it always have to turn into so much quibbling like this? And, of course, those who aren't throwing the stones don't think their side is on the offensive (ex a few commenters there who were confused by your reaction).

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

Being Disney, I really don't see how they could put them all together in acceptable fashion for the mass of moviegoers.

Wow. Now you're inspiring me -- I'm thinking a complete A/U, using all the same characters, but with a different plot and a much happier ending.

Ack! Plot bunnies!

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

If you can pull it off, have at!

[solitaryraven.livejournal.com]

I was going to post this in the comm but I figured that it would just start more problems since it's bashing, but anyway...

J/E fans? Mature?!?! HA! I'm completely overgeneralizing and there are plenty of JEers that are extremely thoughtful and mature, but the vast majority of them, at least those at KTTC, are some of the most immature fans that I've ever seen of any pairing, and I don't even go into the JE threads or anything. They take out their frustrations on everyone just because they think that their ship is the most popular (yeah right, for every person the JE stuff in DMC converted, there are another three people that turned against the movies because of it) and because deep down they know that they don't have a prayer. If TnT had meant for it to be JE, they would have done so in the first movie since it was originally supposed to stand alone.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I think every place has its immaturity. What gets me, though, is at 34 I know I'm no gum-popping adolescent looking for McDreamy (no offense to Patrick Dempsey - I mean as a general term), nor am I alone in my geriatric-ness in the Orlando fan community - and yet, there are so many J/E fans who absolutely *pride* themselves on being older, more mature than us, etc. Truth be told, I don't really think there's any age difference, and there's certainly no reason for them to talk down to us.

[solitaryraven.livejournal.com]

Oh I agree, I've just stated that feeling from my experience, but then I suppose I'm biased anyway.

And I agree about the stigma of being a Will fan. Yes, there are people that enjoy Will solely because of his appearance (and the Will thread at KTTC is doing nothing to stop that, IMO), but there are plenty who like the character for the character. Sure, I found Orlando attractive my first time viewing the first movie, and I still do, but I would enjoy Will as much as I do if he were written in a book and never depicted visually by anyone. I like the character as he's written and depicted and absolutely none of my interest in him comes from who's playing him or his appearance. None.

Honestly, just because I have to say it, anyone who's going to feel better than someone because they're more mature is showing their own immaturity by thinking that.

[hippediva.livejournal.com]

There are a couple of ways of handling such incidents. You could have quoted Johnny on Jack's penchant for 'rogering the cabin boy'. *G* However, it was fairly mild to be honest.

Disabling anon. comments is the best troll-proofing there is. And definitely make it clear in the comm profile that flames, etc. won't be permitted. Other than that, the only way to handle them is bluntly. I had to do it a couple of times at pirategasm and found it is best, as a mod, to stay cool but be very clear. In this situation, you are further hampered by being the author so I'd just ignore it. If you start getting more and more Sparrabeth garbage, just ask 'em why they are complaining about slash on a slash comm, aye?

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I was actually thinking of you when I posted my little "help!" bit. *G* (And totally OT, but I saw an article in an "Entertainment Weekly" from earlier this year the other day - yeah, I'm slow reading - on that Jagger "Performance" film and the whole "Memo From Turner" video thing. I wouldn't have noticed it except for you guys!)

Anyway ... as far as being hampered by being the writer, if someone wants to say "this blows," that's their right. This wasn't even that, and I wasn't offended by the comment personally - I was annoyed that here was yet another incident of someone taking advantage of open commenting to essentially complain about the subject of the very community where the story is posted. I won't go into boring details, but there was a mailing list I was on in the late 1990s that was SO much fun, about an actor a bunch of us liked - it started small, we could use our real names, some of us met in real life, etc. Then a troll pilfered in. Then they brought MORE trolls, and the moderator (not me) didn't tell them to knock it off or ban them. It wasn't long before the place was no longer any fun and good fans abandoned it in droves. So my instinct is to address something when it's small, so it doesn't get worse and ruin everyone's fun.

is best, as a mod, to stay cool but be very clear

I don't think anyone can complain that you're not egalitarian! LOL. You've taken something of mine down before because it wasn't fic or art.

[ainsoph15.livejournal.com]

Yuck. It’s deeply irritating to see these playground antics. If I had ever seen any watertight argument from the rabid J/E fans (I stress, not those who are rational, sane people) to actually justify their Will-hate, well, then I’d probably have already thought of that argument already, and would have my own misgivings about his character. (Which I don’t.) As it is, I’ve never seen anything other than a pile of bitchy pre-school shite which isn’t capable of expressing anything any more sophisticated than, ‘I hate him, because I do, so ner. And I hate you, too.’. Lordy, none of this is real, no one has actually died, and it’s supposed to be fun, dammit! Hell, I don’t know who any of them are, same as I don’t know who any of you are, but it doesn’t mean that I’m about to treat anyone with a distinct lack of manners, and it’s a shame that other people think that it’s ok to be disrespectful to that degree.
It’s a pity that everyone’s fun gets tainted by posters who are cowardly and (heh) rude, oh, and let’s not forget illogical. Yep, disable anonymous posts. Grr.

Rant completed.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

You can probably read my account in the comments to someone else on this one, so I won't go into details again, but let's just say I had a REALLY BAD experience in another fandom years ago, and that was just basically on the sidelines watching. I don't like to quell free speech, but neither do I want a repeat of that experience (which fandom has skated pretty close to in the past 10 months sometimes).

[ainsoph15.livejournal.com]

Crikey >:( Let's hope that sort of thing won't keep happening in the comm. It's good to address it before it becomes an issue, which is precisely what you are doing.

LOL! I agree, freedom of speech is a bit of a bitch sometimes :) I believe that people are entitled to their opinions, but I do find it rather lily-livered when someone makes disparaging comments anonymously, and I'm irritated when completely illogical and pointless things are posted, simply because I end up reading something trite when my eyes could have been put to better use. But hey, that's my opinion. How does the oft-used Voltaire quote go? 'I disagree with everything you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it'.
Hmm, sounds like something Will might say...

[elvensorceress.livejournal.com]

You know, before DMC I always had a thing for J/E. I thought they'd make an interesting, if explosive, pairing. But my goodness! Since it became canon, the wank has gotten ridiculous. *hides in the J/E closet*
Ah, well. I was always an outandproud Turrow girl anyway. They've always had my true love.

But what on earth is wrong with Will? Why all the hate for him? I just don't understand. Is it because he's somehow a threat to a J/E relationship? Personally, if I had the choice of two hot guys who both wanted me I'd ...(well I'd want them do do each other) BUT I don't see why it's an issue. If that makes sense. So, Liz could be with two guys. Where is the down side in that?

I bet everyone's cranky because they know it's Disney and they won't get their way. I'm sorry someone had to commentvomit on your fic.

<3

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

As I pointed out to geek_mama_2, there's no way Disney would be down with the J/W/E thing. It can be done in fanfic - and I'm sure it will be - but onscreen it'll never happen.

[elvensorceress.livejournal.com]

Course not. It's Disney.
But, yes, that is why we have fanfic. :)

[venusinchains.livejournal.com]

You already know how I feel about it. Anonymity is too tempting for the trolls who are most likely to abuse it.

I hope it doesn't get worse. I can't help feeling you may have just let them know they can get to you. (Me? Paranoid?) I guess we'll find out. :-p

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Well, I can get to them, too. All I have to do is mention how Lizzie's gonna be sexless for a decade at a shot - because you know, that's what her character's all about according to many of them, having the sex. It's not defined by any other characteristic - patience, maturity, forbearance, level of self-sacrifice - it's all about how much sex she gets to have. With Jack.

>;-)