veronica_rich (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
veronica_rich) wrote2006-08-05 07:02 pm
veronica_rich) wrote2006-08-05 07:02 pm
On using sex to get ahead ...
One of the wonderful things about the women's movement has been that by and large, in this country at least (I'm only American; I can't speak for any other nationality), it's considered just as normal for a young woman to not be a virgin, as it is for a young man. I'm not suggesting that's any great feat to be lauded for either gender; what I'm saying is that the sexual double standard for women isn't rigid like it used to be. In most quarters, I would term sex as a "live and let live" situation for men and women. I would say very few men expect their brides to be pure for the marriage bed, as opposed to what their grandfathers and great-grandfathers might have expected.
Of course, I'm more impressed by the fact women have a chance at all the same careers as men (well, maybe not Calvin Klein male underwear model) - a side effect not only of the women's movement, but long before that, mostly originating in WWII and the need for domestic labor as most of the working-age men went off to war. I experience the benefit of that all the time, by being a journalist.
I believe I have probably had all I can handle of reading the POV that women ought to be able to use their sexuality to get ahead if they want to, and to try to curtail or discourage such a thing is just oppressive to the female creature.
Pay heed, young girls: As a woman in her mid-30s, I can honestly tell you you will get further in the long run learning to use your brain and your wits, rather than your tits. I would no more teach a daughter of mine to seduce someone to get an interview, a job, or an account, than I would teach a son that wrapping his package in tight pants is the way to gain his business colleagues' and clients' respect. Unlike some people, I don't see this as oppressive to women at all; I view it as liberating, to teach boys and girls alike that using their brains and the full extent of their cleverness to get ahead in life is far superior to getting by on one's appearance or body or ability to suck cock.
Admittedly, sexuality has its place alongside business in a forum where sex IS part of the business - Madonna had no hope of gaining an audience as a performer by standing at a lectern and reading economic theory textbooks. If Johnny Depp didn't swish his hips as often or use his smoldering eyes onscreen, he wouldn't have nearly the success he's enjoyed as a performer. That's not part of my argument.
What nobody wants to tell these girls and women who are all about using their bodies as bargaining chips is the un-P.C. reality that doing so doesn't gain one any real respect. Grandma taught it; Mom taught it. It's one of the few things I'm willing to admit they were both right about.
I once had a beat as a beginning reporter that involved covering a county commission consisting of three men, two of whom were as backwoods and misogynistic as could be. They had zero respect for me when I started going to their meetings, and this lasted for several months, until I proved I was willing to gladly write, repeatedly, whatever it took to show what charlatans they were (factually, of course). The reporter before me, also a woman, covered them for a year or two, and she tried a different tack - admittedly very pretty and leggy, she showed off her legs, flirted with them, and alluded to the promise of more if they would cooperate with her requests for information. Not only did they play games with her the whole time and never cooperate with her, for years after she was gone, it was generally talked about around the courthouse what a slut Judy was and how bad she was at her job - because she chose to negotiate with sex rather than a brain.
That, girls, is reality. You may not be popular if you don't put out in the course of the job, but you DO stand a better chance of getting what it is you really need and garnering respect rather than contempt. Those two commissioners hated me like poison, but they never again failed to respect me after I got them kicked out of office during the next election for reporting habitual misuse of county funds.
I am proud to say that I've never gone into a story or an editorial meeting thinking How can I use my cunt to get ahead? (I have used being a woman as a position from which to draw empathy to write about some other women in human interest stories, but only insofar as it was appropriate that gender may play some relevant role in the story.) I've also worked with a lawyer for the past few years doing research and accounting his office's finances (I'm a freelancer and it supplements my income), and I can honestly say that my ability to shake my tits has never entered into our relationship or helped me balance a budget sheet or find a legal reference. He doesn't pay me more than most other legal assistants around here make on the basis that I'm cute and willing to put out, either - it's because I've worked hard to learn my responsibilities, and no amount of flirting or sucking would've garnered me that education.
Just because the women's movement (finally!) afforded us freedom of sex and the full range of life choices doesn't mean sex has to play into every life choice we make. Just because men WILL stare at your tits doesn't mean you should use them to get ahead in anything other than a personal sexual or romantic relationship. (Same goes for women if you're inclined toward lesbians.) I don't believe learning to meet men in business on terms of brains, talent, chutzpah, and respect is "competing in a man's world" - it's our fault for still using that term. We are now every bit as much a part of that "man's world" and it's a dangerously antiquated phrase that allows for silliness such as "Oh, I can use my sex to get ahead! Squee!" to be seen as genuine empowerment and a replacement for - or supplement to - education, talent, and willingness to learn.
Of course, I'm more impressed by the fact women have a chance at all the same careers as men (well, maybe not Calvin Klein male underwear model) - a side effect not only of the women's movement, but long before that, mostly originating in WWII and the need for domestic labor as most of the working-age men went off to war. I experience the benefit of that all the time, by being a journalist.
I believe I have probably had all I can handle of reading the POV that women ought to be able to use their sexuality to get ahead if they want to, and to try to curtail or discourage such a thing is just oppressive to the female creature.
Pay heed, young girls: As a woman in her mid-30s, I can honestly tell you you will get further in the long run learning to use your brain and your wits, rather than your tits. I would no more teach a daughter of mine to seduce someone to get an interview, a job, or an account, than I would teach a son that wrapping his package in tight pants is the way to gain his business colleagues' and clients' respect. Unlike some people, I don't see this as oppressive to women at all; I view it as liberating, to teach boys and girls alike that using their brains and the full extent of their cleverness to get ahead in life is far superior to getting by on one's appearance or body or ability to suck cock.
Admittedly, sexuality has its place alongside business in a forum where sex IS part of the business - Madonna had no hope of gaining an audience as a performer by standing at a lectern and reading economic theory textbooks. If Johnny Depp didn't swish his hips as often or use his smoldering eyes onscreen, he wouldn't have nearly the success he's enjoyed as a performer. That's not part of my argument.
What nobody wants to tell these girls and women who are all about using their bodies as bargaining chips is the un-P.C. reality that doing so doesn't gain one any real respect. Grandma taught it; Mom taught it. It's one of the few things I'm willing to admit they were both right about.
I once had a beat as a beginning reporter that involved covering a county commission consisting of three men, two of whom were as backwoods and misogynistic as could be. They had zero respect for me when I started going to their meetings, and this lasted for several months, until I proved I was willing to gladly write, repeatedly, whatever it took to show what charlatans they were (factually, of course). The reporter before me, also a woman, covered them for a year or two, and she tried a different tack - admittedly very pretty and leggy, she showed off her legs, flirted with them, and alluded to the promise of more if they would cooperate with her requests for information. Not only did they play games with her the whole time and never cooperate with her, for years after she was gone, it was generally talked about around the courthouse what a slut Judy was and how bad she was at her job - because she chose to negotiate with sex rather than a brain.
That, girls, is reality. You may not be popular if you don't put out in the course of the job, but you DO stand a better chance of getting what it is you really need and garnering respect rather than contempt. Those two commissioners hated me like poison, but they never again failed to respect me after I got them kicked out of office during the next election for reporting habitual misuse of county funds.
I am proud to say that I've never gone into a story or an editorial meeting thinking How can I use my cunt to get ahead? (I have used being a woman as a position from which to draw empathy to write about some other women in human interest stories, but only insofar as it was appropriate that gender may play some relevant role in the story.) I've also worked with a lawyer for the past few years doing research and accounting his office's finances (I'm a freelancer and it supplements my income), and I can honestly say that my ability to shake my tits has never entered into our relationship or helped me balance a budget sheet or find a legal reference. He doesn't pay me more than most other legal assistants around here make on the basis that I'm cute and willing to put out, either - it's because I've worked hard to learn my responsibilities, and no amount of flirting or sucking would've garnered me that education.
Just because the women's movement (finally!) afforded us freedom of sex and the full range of life choices doesn't mean sex has to play into every life choice we make. Just because men WILL stare at your tits doesn't mean you should use them to get ahead in anything other than a personal sexual or romantic relationship. (Same goes for women if you're inclined toward lesbians.) I don't believe learning to meet men in business on terms of brains, talent, chutzpah, and respect is "competing in a man's world" - it's our fault for still using that term. We are now every bit as much a part of that "man's world" and it's a dangerously antiquated phrase that allows for silliness such as "Oh, I can use my sex to get ahead! Squee!" to be seen as genuine empowerment and a replacement for - or supplement to - education, talent, and willingness to learn.
no subject
no subject
no subject
no subject
no subject
no subject
I've found that most men, especially men who haven't worked with women much, are impressed when you act like "one of the guys" - dress in a work-ready manner and save any kissing-up/flirting for time when you're not at work.
A woman who uses T&A around men (if her job involves working with them, as mine have) is generally seen as a "helpless female" who expects the men around her to do her job for her.
no subject
Where do you think I came up with the idea to write it? *G*
I'm not posting it anywhere, although you are free as a bird to link it. I'm just tired of reading posts from 18-year-olds who think they know the world and can't understand what could possibly be wrong with a woman using her sexuality to get ahead, or to get *anything*, and then be puzzled as to why men wouldn't still respect them in spite of this.
My two favorite arguments are: (1) Sexuality is empowering, and women should flaunt theirs whenever possible to get what they want - that this is somehow a positive feminist viewpoint and anyone who doesn't buy it is stuck in some Victorian "women should be seen and not heard" mindset; and (2) In Elizabeth's time period, that's the only way women could get ANYTHING. I call bullshit on both arguments (especially the second, given that in the first movie, Elizabeth proved she could hold her own with the males and get herself and others out of tight spots without resorting to her cunny or her pouty lips).
no subject
"My two favorite arguments..."
Sexuality is only empowering if you already have the respect of the men you're using it on and if he feels the same way. And if you dig deeply enough into historical record, you find that there have always been women who have chosen to make it without that kind of help from a man. (So, yeah, youth and ignorance are a big annoyance factor for me with the J/E crowd.)
...given that in the first movie, Elizabeth proved she could hold her own..."
I wonder if Elizabeth wasn't portrayed as "using her sex" in DMC, because she was dressed as a boy most of the time. I suspect the writers/producers were afraid she'd look "too masculine" otherwise. ('Cause, yah know, the audience might just forget she really was a girl. *rolls eyes*)
no subject
Don't even get me started. I've read two stories in the past two days - N/E, actually - where Will got screwed over simply for being decent and acquiescent to Elizabeth and on top of it, the writer *justified* it as OK because Elizabeth was just too much woman for him. *eyeroll*
So, yeah, youth and ignorance are a big annoyance factor for me with the J/E crowd
I hope that's all it is, with these bad attitudes. Heaven knows there have to be older, more mature J/E fans who still treat Will well.
And yes, Elizabeth might just fade right into the background if we weren't reminded often enough that SHE IS A SEXUAL BEING IN CHARGE OF HER OWN MISS INDEPENDENT FUTURE, OMG. I've been an "independent woman" since I was 17 and I'm insulted that because I haven't tried to fuck a man into submission to my own ends (outside the bedroom) that I've somehow missed out on the feminist experience.
no subject
This feels kind of OT, but I take this to mean that you consider yourself a feminist. I'm betting that those Will bashing, tit flashing youngsters would quickly deny the label. I've listened to more than a few discussions on the subject (admittedly, they were all at a relatively cheap southern college, but) - it's amazing how many 20ish age females don't consider going to college and getting jobs (jobs that require a college education) feminist activities (for us grrrrls).
Women's Studies should be taught alongside Women's Health in junior high.
no subject
I don't know that 20-year-old girls in this country can really appreciate the opportunities they take for granted. Hell, I'm just shy of 34 and I can't remember a time when I was discouraged from wanting to go to college and have a career, even though I grew up in a small, backwoods town. But I agree girls should know what's come before them and why their elder women try to drum into them that things weren't always this way and (given the drive to outlaw abortion again, as well as simple birth control) that they can quickly return to the way they were again.
no subject
I sounds like we're on the same page.
I know The Feminists, like most other large groups (e.g.: online fandoms :p), can't all agree on anything (and differing personal experience can't be helped), but I still find the apparent denial of the whole movement kinda frightening.
Somehow, highly visible things like Elizabeth Sexing Up Jack on screen (in a record-breaking summer blockbuster), and the extremely positive response it gets from folks like those in the J/E crowd, make me fear that your worst case scenario (the "return to the way they were") is being sought out by younger generations. (Yes, I'm paranoid.)
I hope that PotC#3 will somehow force the issue - show explicitly that Sexing Up Jack was a bad move on Elizabeth's part, a move that has consequences for her. And I wonder how the J/E crowd will respond to that, if it happens. It should prove interesting (J/E crowd response, that is) whatever happens in #3.
no subject
You have a point about feminists. It seems both online and in RL, there are so many factions doing so much infighting that it sometimes seems maybe they're not getting much else done for the actual advancement of women in an equal world?
no subject
- Silver Rose
no subject