veronica_rich | Thoughts on choice

Woman whose fetus died in suicide bid out of jail

Basically, this woman was 8 months pregnant, her boyfriend left her, and she ate rat poison to kill herself and the fetus. Now she is being charged with murder because her fetus died as a result. Obviously this brings up a whole raft of questions, the most pressing for me being: How far along in a pregnancy is the fetus a "fetus" with no separate rights of protection as a legal "person?" Because on the one hand, it's a shame a fetus that could be born viably as a baby at that stage was harmed and killed. On the other hand, it's obviously still dependent on a clearly existing person's host body, or it would have been born by then - the implication being, if we say it's okay to protect some fetuses from their carriers (except, say, in a surrogacy contract, which is a whole separate animal), do we open the door to saying NO woman has rights over deciding the termination of her fetus at much earlier stages of development? Or can we truly discern shades of gray, legally, on an issue like this?

This is a really, really uncommon kind of case; women who go to the trouble of willingly carrying a fetus this far rarely decide to just chuck it all near the end. (This is why the whole "partial birth" debate irritates me - it's a tale perpetuated by forced-birthers to prey on emotions. Doctors performing abortions at this stage are doing so because the woman is in medical danger from the fetus, or the fetus itself is damaged enough to be a concern.)

Sort of tangential - but did you know suicide is considered a crime in most states, if not all? Failed, discovered attempts aren't usually prosecuted because the doctrine of ordering treatment for mental imbalance usually takes over.

Anyway, this is a sticky wicket, and I do pity the baby forced out as a result, that had to suffer. Even if I were to support *any* kind of criminal charges against this woman - and I don't know yet if I do - it does not change my basic position of choice for women, legally speaking, and that proper medically regulated abortions should remain legal (who knows - if this woman had gone to an abortion doctor, s/he might have explained the complications and referred her to counseling, and she might have changed her mind. At any rate, it proves yet again that society doesn't stop abortions by simply removing legal access).

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Still trying to figure out how someone "bids out of jail" -- do we get to name our own bail now? That would sure help me if I got arrested.

(Pardon me using my alt journal, it's what I was logged in to)

It was a "suicide bid" and she got out of jail. Just a badly written head line.

OK, now I'm wondering what the minimum is on a suicide bid, and by how much it can be raised

(Yeah, I know, bad headline)

I imagine it would simply be the cost of the rat poison. Frankly, I would prefer the far less painful sleeping pill method myself.

(I'm slightly disturbed by this convo...so why am I continuing it, probably because I am a horrible person.)

Beldar and I are both journalists, so easily amused by weird headlines we didn't have to write. :-P

Staggered at the stupidity of the first comment: "Obviously she knew that rat poison couldn't be good for her or the baby". Well, duh. She was trying to commit suicide.

Hard to say how I feel about this case. Hopefully the jury will be fair-minded individuals.

Exactly. Those of us who have tried/contemplated it know that what ever method we will/have tried isn't good for us. We aren't exactly rational at the time.

*Head Wall*

The chick obviously needs her head examined. While I could *sort* of see a halfway rational woman not that far along swallowing a little poison and risking illness to abort because she doesn't have access to an abortion clinic or can afford it (and is desperate to get rid of the clump of cells before it progresses too far, I mean), I really don't understand how you could call someone eight months along doing the same thing sane.

Edited 2012-05-29 17:34 (UTC)

At any rate, it proves yet again that society doesn't stop abortions by simply removing legal access).

No, it just makes people try and get more creative. Coat hangers, long horse rides, folk medicine... there are plenty of herbal treatments out there to get rid of unwanted pregnancies.

(oh, how I love researching things.)

That's why I hate those bumper stickers that say "It's not a choice, it's a child" -- it's ALWAYS a choice, and if you're anti-abortion, it's both. But one doesn't just involuntarily sneeze and oops! - a baby

I'd say if I'm the one having to raise the kid, it ought to be my choice. Also, if I'm the one having to undergo the pregnancy, I should get to choose if I want to do so - it's like telling a cancer victim they can't get the tumor removed for eight more months. (Someone will get pissed off that I compared a fetus to a malignant tumor, but to the female body, that's pretty close to what it is. Despite how easy getting knocked up looks, it's actually a pretty harrowing journey for a sperm and/or a fertilized egg - a female body might be designed to reproduce, but that doesn't mean that same body's immune system doesn't often treat these things like the intruders they are, on a purely medical level.)

I feel the same way about pregnancy that I do about camping outdoors - if there is a God and God wanted me to do either one, It wouldn't have provided ways around having to do either (i.e., abortions, birth control, beds, A/C, indoor plumbing, all the other comforts of indoor living).

Sometimes things like this just...make my brain die a little. I mean...I am of course pro-choice and all, but at 8 months along it really is more child than cluster of live cells. Lol. Buuuut then again, it's still a fetus and still blah blah well you know what I mean.

I really wish suicide wasn't a crime, though. You fail to kill yourself, you're going to face a lot of troubles and being a criminal/having a record/whatever doesn't help a thing. I don't see what its even supposed to accomplish.

Failed suicide isn't normally prosecuted; like I said, it's usually taken as a signal the person needs help, not jail time. That said, this IS the state that worked so hard to kill funding for Planned Parenthood.

It is impossible to convey the mixture of rage, fear, disgust and sorrow that news items like this engender.

It's hard for me to convey the sheer head-shaking I do when I read these things. You know that swallowing poison is so pleasant that everybody's going to be doing it now that they've read in a news article they can!

A juvenile in our area was recently convicted of murdering his dad's girlfriend and her unborn child (baby was within two weeks of the due date, as I recall).

There are many disturbing aspects to this story, two of which are: 1. The boy was only eleven at the time. 2. It was HIS gun. Some sort of juvenile hunting gun that was not locked up. His father was not charged with negligence.

I'd say if the injury comes from without the pregnant woman and without her consent, the loss of the fetus should be some sort of crime - perhaps manslaughter at the most, even if the murder of the woman was premeditated (I feel like the woman's life is worth more). Which is a whole separate issue from what you mention, but I just thought I'd throw that in there. Dad should definitely have some responsibility there since it's his minor child committing the crime.

*wry grimace* I fail to see how 'punishing' her with a murder conviction will help her suicidal tendencies. Pray tell, who are they going to blame when they find her hanging in her cell? or will they be 'congratulating' themselves on being ever-so just and right. Ha! like a whole mob of petty Javerts.

Well, it's Indiana ... you know, it's more important to Make A Point than to employ some logic. Because every other pregnant woman that far along who doesn't need some therapy is going to run out and swallow rat poison to get rid of a fetus, now that they have the idea.

/eyeroll

She'll probably get the death penalty, now wouldn't that be ironic?

Here's a disheartening stat:

http://news.yahoo.com/pro-choice-americans-record-low-poll-finds-162145636--abc-news-politics.html

I sure hope there are no biological males in that poll. There IS no choice for them. Period.

Thoughts on choice

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject