Oh, what the hell ...

[veronica_rich]

Show of hands: How many women think it's OK that if you're walking down the street, a fellow comes up and politely asks if he can grope your breasts?

Now, how many of you think it's OK for you to pay for the privilege of going to a function that's not primarily touted as a sexual hookup, nor has it ever been, and being treated this way?

Boy oh boy. Isn't it convenient for the Southern Baptist fundies that this could happen right in their own back yard, at Dragon*Con? Why, all those heathen Harry Potter fans will be there, along with the Buffy witches and the pirate whores! ;-)

ETA: This post. I confess I don't have all these rituals myself, but yeah, I carry around a few. I don't like being out for long at night, if I'm in the city or somewhere that's not home in the country where I can feel safe and know how to get inside quickly. I've driven on long trips where on a few occasions I've had truckers I felt like were "tagging" me and deliberately hanging around my car for long distances waiting for me to exit somewhere deserted perhaps. Oh, and go to the second page of that post, where I talk about the classroom full of boys I had to face in the 8th grade!

Welcome to the average life of an American woman. And we're generally considered the ones in the world you don't want to fuck with. I can't imagine women in some other places.

Comments

[venusinchains.livejournal.com]

Well, it looks like the con organizers may have spoken. And since "acting like a jerk" is listed as an ejectable offense, I would hope this Project just goes away. *rolls eyes*

I still wonder if any of those buttons will show up there. It tempts me to go just so I can wear a "Not For You" button, or similar.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I've always enjoyed the t-shirts that say across the front "MY EYES ARE NOT DOWN HERE."

[venusinchains.livejournal.com]

Hey, I forgot to actually vote. Um... No. And no.

And, you've probably already seen this (I think I did, but I just skimmed it and promptly forgot where I saw it) but the link was put in the second D*C post on boobiefest, so here it is.

The whole power struggle is laid out. They go on about the patriarchy, but I prefer to call it guys-being-dickheads. I especially like the bit loligo suggested, about half-way down the post. It kinda negates the whole "for the benefit of women as well" bit:
http://giandujakiss.livejournal.com/404780.html?format=light

[thewolfmistress.livejournal.com]

I think I've already made my position clear on the subject. But I still can't believe this is happening at all.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Someone pointed out that I left out the part about wearing the buttons and that being a "signal" known by all. And I did; I did it intentionally, because to me, that's not the point at all. What if I wear a green button that's something else entirely? I'll get eleventy hundred guys craning their necks to read it and stare at my boobs, and some who won't bother looking for details and just blurting out their question. (And this argument of "You can just say no" - why should I have to say it 200 times? Don't you think that'll cut into MY fun?)

[ne.livejournal.com]

Thank you, I don't know you but saw the posting and followed you back to your lj home smile.
I was wondering about the button thing myself as I know a ton of folks wear numerous buttons at the cons.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

For me and my friends, that's the only place we wear our buttons - you can't really wander around in public if you're in your 30s, wearing Orlando Bloom's face on your chest, or something that reads "Buck Fush" without putting up with a lot of annoyance. (And for the record, my "Buck Fush" IS a large green button.) I do not feel like having to smack away every fellow who happens to glance a flash of shine on my chest from the next aisle and comes zooming over to check it out. (And I say that because my chest is rather protuberant on its own.)

I don't mind my buttons being read; that's what they're for. But if I have to stand there wondering if a guy's working up the nerve five feet away to ask if he can feel me up, my right hand is going to be clenched into a fist the entire time, I suspect.

[astria.livejournal.com]

..the hell?

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I actually thought about asking you guys about this. Did you hear or see about anything relating to something called the "Open Source Project" at PenguiCon? Where women wore colored buttons and depending on the color of the button, men could go up and ask to touch their breasts?

[astria.livejournal.com]

The whole convention was about "Open Source" but I am thinking someone is using the phrase for completely other purposes...

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

http://crevette.livejournal.com/248426.html

(I'll link to her journal because I know she doesn't mind it. It has the link at the top to what I'm talking about.)

[philosophercat.livejournal.com]

It's all over my flist too.

[astria.livejournal.com]

I must have totally missed this, as I don't recall ever hearing anything about it. I certainly don't remember seeing buttons. At least, not in significant quantity to make me think, "What are all these buttons people have on?"

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I'm just personally totally against it. I think by the time you get to be an adult, you should be expected to try to work for sex or groping and not fall back on a 14-year-old's fantasy - and get it fulfilled. I regard that sort of touching as a reward for effort and time put in, if I want to even grant it. And I can't imagine the liability issues if, say, a 14-year-old who looks 19 got hold of one of those green buttons.

[astria.livejournal.com]

Though, I have had my breasts groped by a female before, without my permission. Not at the con, but.. and yes, possibly who you are thinking. It just strikes me as one of those things where, in the situation I just mentioned, society would laugh at it and have no problem, but if it were the other way around... I'd be a dirty perv who should go to jail. I could probably turn it all into a rant about gender and sex inequality and hypocrisy, but I'm too tired.

I don't really know what else to say on the topic, as I have yet to find the original mention of the whole thing... a "smoking gun" or "event one". All I've seen are others' opinions or explanations of it all. At first, it sounded as if it was a small handful of people being silly, which ballooned into something it wasn't meant to be, but it's hard to sort out when there's no links to an original reference point. At any rate, I put this in the same category as people who allegedly wear those thin plastic bracelets to signal their sexual interests or preferences. If a person just likes to wear thin plastic bracelets, because they are kind of fun, they may receive unwanted attention.

[astria.livejournal.com]

Ok, I've done some more digging. If this was something confined to a room party, or a small cluster of people, I don't care what people do in their own clusters of friends or room parties, but if this is something that catches on and spread out into general con-time, I'm all against it. I know that cons are meant to be fun and all, but cons also have children and non-"open" people attending. Late night parties are really the only place this sort of thing would fall, and since you have alcohol as a factor, it isn't fair to ask someone to make a yes/no decision in that state. Even if it is just touching. Someone, somewhere, will take it too far, someone will go to jail, the media will condemn all cons as havens of perverts, and we all have to deal with it. Just like internet chat rooms and online journal sites, it only takes one.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Actually, to be fair, I've never touched a guy's chest unless I was already dating him, and then not even in public, and I can honestly say I've never groped an ass (though when my sister was little, if she misbehaved, I did smack hers a few times - that's about the closest touching I can remember *G*).

[smtfhw.livejournal.com]

It's only OK if said bloke doesn't object to me breaking hos nose and smacking my knee into his groin...

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Awww, you'd hit him just for asking? ;-)

[smtfhw.livejournal.com]

Yep. I've done it before (to a bloke who lurched up to me and asked if I was any good in bed)... And I have quite an effective right hook.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

There was this greasy, fat biker guy who came up to our group of women - talking among ourselves, I might add - one night outside a bar several years ago and very rudely said to my two friends "You'd be pretty if you'd lose some weight" and "If you didn't have those glasses, I'd fuck you." When he looked at me in my turn, I bared my teeth and chomped them together a couple of times and looked pointedly at his crotch. He turned and left without another word.

[a-silver-rose.livejournal.com]

OMG! I can sooo see you doing the teeth chomp! ROFLMAO!

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

You remember Michelle from Cuba? It was her I was with. You should've seen the look she gave him at the "glasses" remark - melt plastic.

[immortal-jedi.livejournal.com]

... did I miss something?

btw, friending you.

[immortal-jedi.livejournal.com]

Wait, never mind, I've just found the link in your other comments

[roguedemon.livejournal.com]

Whatever happened to the quaint custom of going up to a woman, making cogent and coherent conversation, maybe offering to buy her a drink, and then asking if she wants to have you touch her?

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

If I'm learning anything from all this, it's that we're the wrinkled, out-of-touch prudes who aren't hip and "with it" enough to understand why this is OK.

[p0wdermonkey.livejournal.com]

I'm clearly missing A LOT of the background here, but I can't help thinking that:
A) I'd rather the jerk asked - "politely" for godssakes - than helped himself;
B) There's something to be said for an approach that exposes him as a total jerk instantly rather than having to go through all that conversation/drink/whatever ritual just to find out he's only interested in groping boobs. Saves time, which can be used talking to someone more interesting - probably a woman!

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Actually, I'd rather they go ahead and help themselves. It's far more fun to have a reason to hit someone than to confine yourself to verbally haranging them. :-D

B. Of COURSE that's what they're all interested in! I can at least respect a guy who puts forth some effort to get to that point, even if I don't let him.

[komandant-krech.livejournal.com]

I feel very bad, almost a part of the problem now, after reading that post you linked to 8-/

I live in a somewhat 'seedy' area and have gotten these direct suggestions of sexual activity, breast- and ass-groping in public transport, in the elevator or staircase of our house and so on several times, but somehow I've never bothered to throw a huge fit, instead I've just taken it with light humor or then dry boredom: "I'm sure you have tremendous sexual skills, but unfortunately I'm a bit busy at the moment." "I'm very glad you find my (nonexistent) boobs pleasing but sorry, I'm not in the mood right now." Guess I should've been more aggressive to get the point across, scream and gouge their eyes out, that THAT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR!

Attempts of rape, or physical assault... has happened three times in my life. The problem with these is just where goes the line between justifiable self-defence and excess of it. I had an umbrella with me the one time and I managed to get free by hacking this dude in the face with it, with full strength -- if he had sued me for physical damage he would've probably won because, in the eyes of the court, the whole hassle would've been my own fault. I was coming home from a bar late in the night, walking alone in this dimly-lit alley (where my house happens to be located), wearing high heels and a skirt.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm probably just some backwards, prudish, crazy American kid ...

[komandant-krech.livejournal.com]

And I'm probably a Scandinavian slut, then :p

Nah, seriously -- I'm afraid to do anything drastic because if you defend yourself by hitting someone, it's very quickly _you_ who's in the jail. It's all the same how you react, these assholes will just move to their next target.

Your attitude is the better one -- I guess I've just ceased fighting, myself...

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I'm very bad at keeping my opinions to myself. You see how it gets me in trouble in an innocuous place like LiveJournal. ;-)

[komandant-krech.livejournal.com]

Oh, man... hadn't read your previous post -- please tell me that 'project' is a joke! I've always wanted to attend a con (never been to one) but after reading that I'm not so sure anymore...

Jesus, if some dude is so pathetic touching a woman's breasts is the only thing that makes him happy, I'd almost feel I'm making the good deed of the day by allowing him this ultimate, mind-blowing, once-in-a-lifetime experience. "Never touched a boob before? Never even _seen_ one? Poor you -- go ahead then and take a look -- this must be the best day of your life!" ROFL!

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

You should really read the source post that started it all, the guy who suggested (and did) it. Man oh man, some of the comments ... it reads more like the Letters to Penthouse Forum than anything you'd find in real life.

*eyeroll*

Which, of course, makes me wonder if it's really real or if this guy's just having a good time on us.

[kahva.livejournal.com]

This whole boob grope thing that apparently happened at Penguicon(sp?) has made me remember this button that a gal was wearing at Marcon last year http://pics.livejournal.com/kahva/pic/0000zz5g/g7 With some of the wandering eyes of various guys over that weekend, the button was highly appropriate at times. I'm not talking about the subtle, politely appreciative looks that communicate, "Wow, she looks good in that!" and no threat at all, but the kind of looks that make you want to give the guy a tub to drool into. After you kick his nuts into the middle of next week, that is. Nobody tried to grope anybody that I am aware of during Marcon last year, and I'm certainly no con-going pro, but I have been to just enough to know that there's a chance you may run into folks at nearly any con who can be the bad kind of weird, or just plain creepy/slimy. Combine that knowledge with plenty of times being picked on because of being fat and clumsy when I was growing up?

Anybody who tries to grope me on purpose in any situation, not just cons, is going to find out just why you do NOT want to make this Southern gal angry. I WILL defend myself, and my friends. How did Kira put it to Quark in ST:DS9? Rough quote: "If you don't take your hand off my hip, you will never use it to raise a glass again." I've been told that I can be intimidating at times, so maybe that's why that somewhere during my brief time at NC State I started not to be picked on. I had one jerk try to pick me up, I gave him a non-working phone number and told him I was Jessica Savitch (still wish I had remembered the Public Safety number and had given that one instead). A couple of guys yelled something at me out of their car window late one night as they were driving by the Student Union, I yelled back, "Up yours!!" in a VERY loud, VERY ticked off voice. Nothing else ever was tried on me for the rest of the time I was there. I made sure I was aware of my surroundings, rarely walked back to the dorm very late at night alone, had my keys at the ready to defend myself, and whether it was day or night, I walked with a purpose - if anybody tried anything, I fully intended to see it coming, give myself that precious second or two to find a way out of the situation safely.

If someone is stupid enough to come up to me at Marcon this Memorial Day weekend, or any other con I may attend in the future and ask me if they can grope my breasts or any other part of my body? I have a vocabulary, I am NOT afraid to use it. By the time I'm through with them they may need a dictionary to figure out just how thoroughly they've been told off, but they will know NOT to do such a stupid thing around me ever again. If anyone just out and out grabs? So help me, they will never be able to procreate in any conceivable fashion whatsoever.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I've never cared much for being popular that way myself. I've always made it clear I wouldn't put up with it, and heck, I've gotten dates. Those just happen to be the guys it's worth dating - and there aren't many!

[joey112.livejournal.com]

Only if I can have his balls as testical shaped earrings.

[pktaxwench.livejournal.com]

Wow. I read that long post; they border on paranoia. There's being smart, and then there's living in fear.

As for your show of hands..

Random person on the street? Oh hell no.

Con? Situational. Conventions are, to me, a 'safe' area to be an exhibitionist. I won't go out in public wearing shorts, but I'll wear my gold metal bikini and hang with my Han Solo at D*C. Con's are not the place to express my feminist views. They're my playground.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

For me, it has nothing at all to do with feminism. It's basic respect. I would no more ask to grab a man's balls out in public than I would suffer being asked to have my boobs groped. I just think if guys really want to do it THAT badly, they don't need some bullshit "therapy" excuse to do so - seems to me what they really want is to behave like boors and not get slapped for it. *G*

[caniad.livejournal.com]

Yikes. Not being at all familiar with the original debate, I read through some of the links to see what this was all about. I can tell you now, if some guy came up - regardless of the venue - and asked to touch my breasts (or did so without asking) I'd be more than happy to rip his arm off and beat him with it. Absolutely no way I'd allow that. It crosses the line of objectification for me.

To be honest, though, nothing like this has ever happened to me. I'm flat enough that I could put a piece of plywood to shame, so I don't usually get the male gaze (cue the reference to Lacan and Laura Mulvey) moving downward. At the same time, though, I'm saddened to read other women's stories, and I can't blame anyone for being extra cautious. The only time I'm more or less living alone is when my husband is deployed, but I can promise that I take every precaution then. Better safe (and maybe a little paranoid) than sorry, as far as I'm concerned.

[ainsoph15.livejournal.com]

OH FFS! A con is not a sex club. If people want to get jiggy with the jigglies, surely they can save it for the hotels and parties afterwards. Also, I don't think it would make it any more ok if there were a bunch of guys going round wearing a pin that denoted 'Grab my nuts', not only because to be honest, do you really wanna be grabbing the nuts of the kind of guy who wears a pin to show that, but also because in that environment, it's just not appropriate. Flirtation and banter and kissing/hugging etc - fine. BUT overtly sexual contact? WTF?

Heh. But now you've got me wondering, is it worse if someone grabs first, or asks before they grab (in the context you give above)? Sure, you can smack on the first and say no to the second, but they both leave you feeling unpleasantly objectified, and thinking that either kind of guy is an asshole. Asking if you can touch is only appropriate within the 'safe' confines of a sex or fetish club, where there are very strict rules about what is and what is not ok, and everyone is entirely respectful of an individual's decision. If someone says no in the context of a club like that, they are in no way vilified for it, whereas if a woman who IS wearing a pin says no at the con, she'll most likely be thought of as a frigid bitch.

It's this kind of crap that makes me get upset for all the genuinely lovely men out there who have to see sort of shit giving their gender a bad name. Urgh; whatever happened to the good old-fashioned way of discreet ogling followed by a wank in private, eh???

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

I always thought the chase was supposed to be the fun part! I mean, can you imagine the fic?

Jack: *sidles up beside Will, gives him a frank once-over* Mind if I give your yard a good polishin'?

Will: *PUNCH TO THE NOSE* Hell, no.

[a-silver-rose.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that wouldn't work. I prefer the sword sex, teeheehee. ;)

You are right about the chase being the fun in any fic, fanfic or otherwise. And for the record, I think this Project is a bad idea all around. Leaves too much liability out there for people who have nothing to do with it.

[elibad.livejournal.com]

Icky. I get that some are okay with this, and that's great. But it becomes a problem because there are many who aren't okay with it and the possibilities of them being dragged into are too large to discount.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

That's what I thought, too.

Now I'm wondering if the guy really did this or if it's just a pretty simple fantasy. Hard to believe real women would say some of that stuff, after all ...