veronica_rich | The spammage continues

The spammage continues

(I feel like this should become "Vacation: Day Five-01" or something)

Surely everybody and their pet iguana has likely seen the link to the blog entry by now from the woman who claims that writing and reading m/m slash is perpetuating male heirarchy and expectations, rather than being the subversive, non-mainstream thing we all thought it was when many of us got into it several years ago - before the mainstream actually had ever heard of "slash" or "fanfiction."

My take on slash is that I enjoy it as a form of romance in a way that I don't any longer enjoy the vast majority of "typical" m/f romance novels, by and large. When I buy a book, I buy something about science or history, or suspense and sci-fi, but rarely do I buy a categorical romance, though I did when I was much younger. I understand this sounds like a rather shallow reason for enjoying something that takes up several hours of my life each week, but it would be disingenuous for me to pretend otherwise.

And as much as I love reading and occasionally contributing my own meta on my preferred slash pairings, the fact is that I rarely give it the kind of internal examination we were required in college to give Chaucer, or the reasons behind the 19th century labor movement. I am capable of that level of dissertation - I just don't want to, with slash, or even fanfic, all that much. Perhaps this is why I grew so impatient with all the POTC meta-chatter following DMC - are we not allowed to have something we just enjoy, without having to defend why, so long as we're nice to our fellow fen and don't try to step on their toes? I mean, I asked someone at another post earlier to define radical feminism and explain its appeal over what he called "liberal/status quo feminism." And while he gave me a pretty good explanation, and it's something I would gladly see parts of applied to real-world changes ... the fact is, when you try to apply it to something you do alone in your off-hours to unwind, it just comes across as so much overblown horseshit. Am I alone? Or just exceedingly shallow, that I don't see "something" political in EVERYTHING that comes across my field of vision on a daily basis?

EDIT: Unless lesbian fanfic is being written with an eye toward reality (e.g., women who don't have Barbie-figures and long, flowing hair, who don't want a man in their bed or between them and their girlfriend, or WATCHING), how is it any different from what I have to put up with out of many men on a regular basis? The only difference between their lesbian fantasies and my m/m ones is that they can discuss theirs out in public and it's accepted as being part and parcel of being a hetero man ... but if I try to discuss the fact that I like to watch two hot men get it on for my benefit, I'm perverted and weird. So ... I'd love for this FEMINIST to tell me why I should spend MY time and effort perpetuating a MAN'S fantasy in written form.

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What blog entry? I'd really like to read that, 'cause it sounds like something I could have a laugh at.

Your reason doesn't sound shallow at all, we're all here for the entertaining quality of fanfiction and in my world, it's not to be taken so very seriously. With the differences between peoples likes and dislikes, it would be impossible to live in even this kind of harmony that the communities I linger in, have.

I, for example, read and write slash and am quite particular about it, simply because that's the only kind of romantical literature I read, period. I've never appreciated the typical romance novels for the sole reason of them being absolutely unfathomable to me. I'm a terribly crude person, so I like to have my romances with a nip of austere and a splash of vehemence all peppered with the occasional wickedness and two characteristic and pretty men in a relationship tend to have that, so my literature of choice is rather obvious.
It's a pastime activity, a hobby, like you said; something to unwind with and it's shitloads of every kinds of fun.
Someone thinks that's twisted or peculiar, then, hey, by all means, there's no publicly announced thought-police as of yet :)

Dragging political and/or other 'real world' views and issues into something so completely leisurely just takes the breath away from it.
Of course it's fun, and yanks the carpet from under everything I just said, when someone writes a great snark toward something they feel strongly about in the form of a fic, but that happens so rarely that it's not really worth mentioning.

Oh, god I've done it again...sorry for ranting, carry on...

Here you go: http://spinningspinsters.wordpress.com/2008/03/03/in-the-tradition-of-the-wickedary-part-two-by-dissenter

See what you think and get back to me ...

I'll try to arrange my, apparently, schauvinist brain functions into something more comprehendable later when I have time to type it all up, but right now I want to drop this gem here: (quoted from the link) [characters turning to heterosexuality after their brief acquaintance with 'being gay']It is evidence of in-built lesbophobia and homophobia, since this use-by date mentality means that same sex relationships in slash are generally portrayed as being illegitimate, transient, unstable, and not able to last.

You know, cause my 'ship is, like, the antithesis of that...LOL :D

I don't know what she's reading, but I've read a LOT of slash - I mean a LOT - and I don't think I've ever seen anyone "turn straight," although I suppose maybe it happens in some fic I've never seen? (Maybe it's mixed in with those I choose not to read for myriad other quality-issue reasons.) Maybe she is referring to OT3s and multiple relationships at a time - you know, like the J/W and W/E series I'm working on. Maybe she's misinterpreting and doesn't understand, for example, that Will would be carrying on with both of them at once - just not together in the same room.

Ah, yes, that could be it. Or maybe she's been reading some of the abomination that starts out as a perfectly nice, although naïvely written slash and suddenly the writer's decided to Mary-Sue the hell out of it, thus getting the man of her dreams all to herself :)

But still, there's not too many of those either. Maybe we should ask for the link to the archive where they can be found in such vast quantities that they can be used for research material :)

I agree with you. I read slash (and write it) for the fun and romance. I don't expect it to be analyzed or dissected, to me fandom is for fun...not intellectual debate.

Sometimes I just want to say, "chill out, mate, just enjoy it" This is my unwinding time and I enjoy its shallowness :)

Now, that all said, I DO realize that I have issues with RPS that could be classified as "overly analytical" - but those have nothing to do with the dynamics of the stories and are simply based on journalistic beliefs and practices drilled into me over almost 20 years. Could it be called similarly bitchy? Probably. But at least I'm not telling any RPS writers "oh, his cock shouldn't go into his ass THAT way." ;-)

oh, good luck. she's apparently deleting all responses to her that aren't "YAY YOU GO GIRL".

As for me, well let's start with the fact that my back is GOING to go up anytime some 20 yr old babyfangirl starts to tell me that she's studying fandom for YEARS (years! I tell you! years!). I've been active in fandom and writing fanfic for 10 years. That's MY credibility. I don't write slash and rarely read it - but as a het writer, I'm going to take umbrage at the notion that all fanfiction simply reinforces the patriarchy. I don't like weepy clingy needy women in RL or in my fic. (Which would explain my adoration of Elizabeth Swann and Kara Thrace) I don't write 'em and I don't read 'em. The greater challenge is writing a relationship between two strong independent people, but it's what attracts me to the characters and drives me to try to write.

From what I could read (and my eyes kept glazing over so I may not have read all or read her correctly), there is no satisfying this girl. She doesn't like het because it reinforces the patriarchy. She doesn't like slash, because it reinforces the patriarchy. She doesn't like sex, apparently, because sex requires one to penetrate and one to be penetrated. Gee, last time I looked, that's the way we were designed (het or slash). So are we all - in RL and in fic - supposed to just masturbate?

And while I've said I don't read that much slash, if the "they all turn hetro at the end" was so prevalent as she claims, I sure would have run across it once or twice. Instead, I've never seen it; nor have my friends who read and write copious slash.

In the end, she started her "research" with her conclusions already drawn. And amazingly (WOW!), she found only stories that back up her conclusions! What A Coincidence! (/snark)

Truthfully, I take issue with the whole idea that I "worship" the creators of these movies/shows/etc. I do nothing of the sort. I worship Johnny Depp's character of Jack Sparrow, Orlando Bloom's character of Will Turner, and so on. I like to think that I am in some small way making a social commentary on the historical period when I write my stories but I'm not really writing slash to save the world. As for being lesbophobic, that just makes me laugh. I don't write femslash in PotC because I don't like Elizabeth and would hate to saddle poor Anamaria with her. I realize the show's been off the air a few years now but there was plenty of femslash around when "Xena: Warrior Princess" was on the air. What we're seeing here is more of the anti-feminist feminism that Camille Paglia (sp?) started a few years ago. Suddenly everything that old school feminists have done is wrong and is merely playing into the hands of the patriarchy. Apparently, they need more topics for dissertations.

Hmm. I won't say that the idea that she forwards hasn't occurred to me on occasion, being a gender studies wonk and all (so please forgive the following dissertation, but I couldn't resist!). Certainly, slash falls into the typical romantic trope of having two men fight for the same woman (which POTC, to its credit, resisted for a while and in the long run, though the fact that DMC flirted with it is somewhat shameful when CotBP was so progressive in that regard, IMO), and by eliminating the rather unnecessary and typically personality-lite woman altogether, the rivals are free to clash in every way possible (Eve Kosofsky Sedwick's theory of the homosocial, for those who care to look it up). So, yes, it can be viewed as focusing on what really makes the world go around, men wrestling with one another.

However. Doesn't the fact that women are the puppet-masters account for something? I find it far more loathsome when one of the two characters being slashed takes on a weakling, 'femme' persona. Personally, what appeals to me about m/m slash is the idea that two virile men can give into an overwhelming attraction, one that flies in the face of patriarchal constraints.

Not to mention that, as you note, this is supposed to be a hobby. Most men enjoy the idea of 'lesbian' sex when sensationalized through pornography, why shouldn't women exploit the same through the romanticized guise of erotica? The fact that slash has become so prevalent is proof of women being able to own and revel in fantasies they have always had. And some have become authors of original work in their own right. That, to me, is liberation.

Great food for thought!
-G. ;D

Personally, what appeals to me about m/m slash is the idea that two virile men can give into an overwhelming attraction

Yes! This is why I don't care for mpreg (I'm suprised she didn't have a long rant about that) besides the obvious anatomical problems.

I've mentioned my reasons for preferring slash before, but to recap some highlights:

*It contains twice the hot men of het pairings!
*I have an attitude of "been there, done that *yawn*" toward het sex scenes.
*To address her sociological issues - I enjoy that the partners are on equal footing, no danger of pregnancy, etc.

Am I lesbophobic by saying that I just really don't care for the female anatomy? I don't care for het porn because of the extreme close-ups. It does nothing for me. I'm all about GLBT rights, and this lady pisses me off by suggesting otherwise. I'm pissed off that I have to defend my preferences at all.

I have long held the view that radical feminists are nihilists by another name. They espouse separatism on every level. They demand a rigidity towards politics and the political which is just as unbending as any patriarchy. They undermine that there is any value in empathy whatsoever. They have so totally conflated gender with identity that they are unable to see anyone as simply 'human', only by how they gender-identify.

I read the article. It is so marred by generalisations and (whoops, there they are again) invalid syllogisms that it is laughable. But, of course, she won't enter into any kind of dialogue about her views. Oh, how very 'radical' to set up an opinion and then not listen to anyone else's views about it - to even go so far as to censor responses that disagree. Doesn't that sound like the very worst kind of attitude usually associated in the past with a stereotypical male???

Really, anyone that associates themselves with this lovely little corner of hatred - http://www.questioningtransgender.org/ - couched in nonsensical rhetoric, which I found when having a look at the links to other sites on that page, can only want one thing. Death to difference. Death to inclusivity. Death to any sense of kinship or harmony or compassion.

Wow. It made me SO SO FUCKING mad. I may have to go and write vast amounts of incredibly graphic gay porn to make myself feel better. Sheesh.

Goddamn, here I was thinking that I was just enjoying some hot smut, but I was really worshipping the male devil and perpetuating the hierarchy of men with my shameful penis envy! Thanks, over-analyzing blogger!

Gee. And here I thought fanfiction was just for fun. If I'm in a mood for slash, I go read slash, if I'm in a mood for het, I go read het. If I'm too busy with, you know, real life, I read nothing. Simple.

Am I lesbophobic by saying that I just really don't care for the female anatomy?

I dunno. Am I homophobic because I find m/m slash one big irritating yawn?

I am little surprised that more is not made of the perpetuation of sex-role stereotypes in some slash.

I wholeheartedly agree. Much better said than my pity attempt.

Also, please do! ;D
-G.

Hear, Hear! I concur every single word you said.

This is what I can not understand in radical feminism. It looks like all they are trying to accomplish is to feel supreme towards males, to be above a gender who's plumbing just happens to be different than the female's, which to me sounds like pursuing the exact same thing they are preaching is so horribly wrong. It has nothing to do with equality or the human rights of anyone.

Sad, very, very sad.

What I find interesting in the sorry excuse for a blatant attack towards slash fiction is the complete blindness to the option that it might be just the opposite, like you pointed out with the 'puppet-masters' (or I'm reading it wrong...)

Instead of being seen as slaves to the patriarchal patterns of the society, why can't the slash-consumers and -writers be seen as the ultimate feminists, afterall, we are taking our pleasure from making the decidedly male characters dance to our own tune ;)

There have been articles written on that subject, basically suggesting that one of the male partners is a mary-sue in disguise.

Most m/m authors don't take to that idea any better than most J/E authors have taken to the idea of possible self-insertion through the Elizabeth character.

And besides, 99+% of the people involved are writing for themselves (and/or a small group of like-minded friends) and don't want to hear the psychoanalysis - so it does tend to be outsiders, like this "dissenter," who are pointing at possible problems, without taking the time to involve the interested authors or readers. (The result being that the "research" goes nowhere.)

I love your snark and I totally agree with you :D

And no, we're not supposed to even masturbate, anywhere, ever. We're asexual, we must be, since we don't have a clue what to do with our patriarchally-inclined selves and are confused of our own personalities to the point where we start turning gay men straight, straight men gay, we can't decide if we're all lesbian under the mask of being heterosexual, that mask that we're clinging on for dear life in our lesbofobia, and, oh, heck, let's just face it, we are in denial of sexuality even existing, in any form, we hate women just as much as the whole male gender does, and we curse the suffragettes for ever starting that whole nonsense in the first place. Man powa!

And if anybody dares to say that I am wrong, that this isn't the ultimate truth above all truths, I'll throw a tantrum and flip them the bird, cause I've researched this issue for, liek, at least three minutes and know, oh, everything.
*g*

Btw, someone has actually asked for reference links but so far none has been posted. I'm SO going to check back on that, just because :)

I think you might be right about radical feminists as nihilists. At least she admitted that she's a radical feminist right up front. I think she could have skipped the rest of her analysis, because I could have told you exactly what she was going to say. She's entitled to believe whatever she wants, but just for once I'd like to hear an original thought from the radical feminist camp. It's all starting to sound the same now, making for a "radical" perspective that is becoming increasingly predictable.

I will say, though, that I'm happy to see an acknowledgement of fan fiction within academia (if she even fits into such a category). I personally think that it's a fascinating part of the literary culture, although I've definitely reached conclusions that are completely different from the writer of that blog. I'd also like to see more discussion of it at the scholarly level, if only to have people realize that alongside the very badly written fics are surprisingly well-written stories.

Oh, and totally agreed about the generalizations that she makes. Honestly. Her analysis isn't even approaching logical.

Well, I've read [i.e., mocked] some rps slash in which one partner not only takes the stereotypical female role but does a passable imitaation of Mary Tyler Moore in the Van Dyke Show(? = 60s show) while doing so.

Oh, I don't doubt it. And I'd say, back when J/W was going strong after CotBP but before the sequels were announced, that the vast majority of what I read fell into the wet!bitch!Will category. And much like the teenage!pwincess!Lizzie we began seeing a lot of after DMC, I like to think that most of those authors were young AND/OR not taking the canon material very seriously. I suspect they were all self-insertions. (But I'm too damn ~~lazy~~ busy to take a serious look at it.)

Really, honestly good fic - in any category (slash, het, etc) - tends to be rare. That's why so many activists (like "dissenter") and so many academics (that I'm surrounded by at the college) refuse to give it any credence. They will invariably point at that one measly little Mary Tyler Moore Characterization... :-p

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