veronica_rich | Is this for realz?

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Is this for realz?

Now there's a thought in fandom that in AWE, Elizabeth is made the Pirate King by the pirate council.

No, really. There's supposedly even a "pirate king" action figure of Elizabeth out there. Because that's what European-mindset male pirates of the 18th century did - elected women to be in charge of them. All those women they killed and raped? Well, they're Not Elizabeth, who as we know, transcends all mortal and social concerns. (And people criticize Will for idealizing her? Isn't that what gods enjoy from their mortal attendants? Don't blame the character for reacting as one is expected to to his Savior - blame poor writing and this attempt to mishmash symbolism and bastardized mythology into a "plot." I call it Writing By Wikipedia.)

You know, this pirate king thing could be pulled off IF Elizabeth were oh, say, Wonder Woman or Xena. I LOVED when Xena was put in charge of troops, because she knew what she was doing AND she had experience with it more than just yelling "FIRE!" after someone else already had. But Xena is so far ahead of Elizabeth as a badass female character it's not even funny. For one, she has a better sense of humor than Miss Swann. She also has self-deprecation AND she's actually had to suffer for her brutal mistakes. She comes off as more - dare I say - human. Plus - and this is going to get me flamed, but I don't care - she's not a stick figure with hair. She's a real woman with a real woman's weight and presence. (And you know, appearance by itself doesn't impact me usually, but in this case it's just another log on the fire.)

Reasonable fans who seem to hate Elizabeth don't really hate her. They're just annoyed she doesn't have to suffer for her choices, and is still idolized as a "real" character. Will doesn't ask enough questions, he ends up getting whipped and nearly drowned. Jack assumes he's immortal, he gets eaten. Norrington doesn't have enough damn sense to get in out of the rain (well, a hurricane), he loses his ship, his crew, and his commission. (And Elizabeth's kidnap and near-rape in CotBP doesn't count, because Pintel and Ragetti were going to either kill her or drag her back to the ship. That's not a choice, it's simply answering the "Shall we shoot you now, or shoot you later?" question. And I had sympathy for her.)

So ... Will gets to be captain of and chained to the FD for eternity, and Elizabeth gets to be pirate royalty. And the target of yet a NEW man's lustful worship. (And let's not forget, a lovesick Jack still dragging on her coattails.) And this is supposed to make make all the fans content about the movie and want to go back to watch it a few more times?

Either the suits at Disney are stupid with what little money they have (even after firing hundreds of employees), or there are some overly-hopeful fans out there. (I think I know the answer.)

(And, it's my journal and I'll use what userpic I want to. I read a comment somewhere that I'm implying with this something about "gay rights." No, I'm simply pointing out that Disney is attempting to pander to the broadest demographic it has by removing ANY hint of Swishy Jack that Depp doesn't fight to keep on celluloid. I'm amazed there are actually fans who know of Depp's comments about Jack's ambiguity and still insist there's not a gay vibe in his performance - I mean, shit, I didn't need his comments to guess Jack is gayer than eight guys fucking nine guys, at least part of the time.)

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Word and word.

IMO they're totally marketing Elizabeth to be another of the Official Di$ney Prince$$e$. I was wondering how they'd make her "royalty." Bleargh!

If I liked her, I'd overlook it as fiction. But fans who've bent over backwards to justify EVERYTHING she's done as IC (as opposed to simple bad writing, which can't be blamed on the character) have finally convinced me this is what Elizabeth is really like. And I dislike this woman intensely.

I'm with you, although "dislike intensely" is putting it mildly.

She's totally willing to let Jack swing - until her boyfriend gets in between Jack and James. THEN it's her place too. And she's perfectly happy to keep her cold-blooded murder a secret - UNTIL she learns there is a way to bring Jack back, in which event, oops! Cat's outa the bag! THEN she wants to go along.

Everything she does HAS been IC, because this has been her character all along, since the moment we first saw her (stealing from unconscious Will). I've never been able to stand her.

I was inspired to work on a story from her POV to try to explain WHY she did the things she did, what she might've been thinking. I think it may come off sounding simplistic, but it's honestly the only way I can reconcile both movies.

I'm taking all of these "spoilers" with a pound of salt until I see the film simply because some of it seems too far-fetched for me, especially Disney.

That's probably a good idea, except that I prefer to walk in skeptical and have my mind changed (the very opposite of how I approached the second movie, when I gave them the benefit of the doubt).

Your tactic is really what I'm doing. I'm going to read all of these "spoliers" and, hopefully, be very happy/surprised by the film.

That was my attitude going into DMC-- expecting to be disappointed and hoping I was wrong. Unfortunately, I wasn't. :(

NEVER give them the benefit of the doubt! *nods*

Yeah, I think they're going to punish her plenty.

Call it a hunch, although it's rather more than.

Let's hope. I might pay to see that more than once.

Highlight for spoilers:

I think you'll be very pleased.

Why would that make me happy? Three characters I probably like better suffer just so Lizzie can learn the moral lessons most of us have drilled into us by the time we're 10 years old?

You're misunderstanding what I mean by "suffer." I don't want her to take anyone down with her. I want to see reptentance and the abolition of that smirking little pout into something that resembles contrition, and actions that attempt to put things right that went horribly, horribly wrong. (And Jack has her beat at this point - you can't do much more for your sins than die, which is an extreme I wouldn't even wish on her character.)

Hm. They don't necessarily suffer on her account alone. But what would be a worse consequence to you for some wrong action--your own death, or the death of someone you dearly loved?

In this case, I'd rather see hers. If someone else dies, she'll get over it and move on to the next guy.

It's all your fault and everyone else who has convinced me she was completely IC in DMC. *G* When I thought she was OOC, I figured she was just the victim of bad writing. Now that I see there's nothing she did OOC, I just detest the character.

?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

You mean this is a POTENTIAL spoiler, right? Please please please?

If true, have to agree with veronica_rich: why do others have to die to balance Elizabeth's deeds? On the other hand, it would continue the theme that there are unforeseen consequences for every action. As it was for Jack, Will, and Norrington, so it should be for Elizabeth.

Back in the CotBP writers' commentary, at the end when Will finally breaks the law deliberately and blatantly in front of everyone by trying to free Jack from the noose, one of the Ts said that was the reason why you should break the law: because it is wrong, and not because you'll get a big tv, or something like that. They even have Will say "I accept the consequences of my actions." Since DMC and now the rumors/spoilers/whatnots about AWE, it looks like T&T were going with the self-gratification-even-at-the-expense-of-others; ie, everyone becomes a pirate/pirate-like. This spoiler indicates otherwise...very ying-yang this spoiler...

And didn't mean to jump on you like that; thank you for the 411.

- M

They don't die to only to balance Elizabeth's deeds, but the other characters' deeds as well, including their own. It's not, after all, all about Elizabeth or Elizabeth's choices. But she is going to have a lot to lose in this movie. If my sources are right; and they have been corroborated by about 99 percent of the other spoiler information I have seen and read, including the teaser trailer.

TnT's theme in these movies is very much about consequences. It continues in DMC--the writer's commentary on the DVD goes into that a lot.

*raises glass* Here, here! Well said!

It all comes down to the almighty dollar and even if it's shit, they make a ton of money. CotBP stayed in theaters for MONTHS. Not so much for DMC. While everyone had to go see it and enjoyed it, it was nowhere as good as the first. maybe it was because we all had pre-conceived notions about the characters and story lines and yes, it bought in more money, but to me, there's still no comparison for a well-rounded film such as the first. I've been telling myself to wiat for the third and maybe I'd like DMC better. But I honestly don't know. I know there are some things they could do which would completely ruin it for me and I'm really hoping it doesn't tarnish my love for the first one if AWE pisses me off. I guess I wait and see.

Events set into motion in DMC cannot be reasonably, satisfactorily concluded for the majority of viewers in two and a half hours. It cannot be done. Anyone able to write such a story would deserve an Oscar, and these are NOT Oscar-caliber writers. The only heartening thing is that maybe enough of the fans will be annoyed with the ending that we'll agree on SOMETHING once again and get back to writing fic to "fix" things rather than bickering and quarreling.

That would really be nice. Because the only thing DMC did was to upset the apple cart, so the speak, causing a division in the fandom. I've seen it happen before and that's the quickest way to kill a fandom. We stand united or it fails. And maybe I'm pissed because now suddenly I'm on the outside instead of with the apparent majority. I'd just really looked forward to the second film because I wanted a ton of fiction. Something I didn't get because everyone is too busy rah, rah, rahing for Jack/Elizabeth--something that to me, came out of left field. From the first film, what I was was Elizabeth's long for Jack's freedom and to lose the constraints of her gender and her birth. Nothing more. Then suddenly BAM--we're supposed to believe it's been suppressed longing when she never batted an eye when he was gone, choosing Will. They're going to have to do some serious shit to redeem what they did to characters in DMC. And I stand by my opinion, Will was the only one that wasn't force that I recognized--"growth" and all.

Elizabeth is made the Pirate King by the pirate council.

Pirate council. Right. That's even more improbable than pirate lords.

As someone said in a locked post in my LJ (which is why I'm not quoting names) the more Disney pushes the "pirate lords" (and now, apparently, "pirate king") concept, the more pirates look less like the epitome of Freedom (Which is what they're supposed to be, right? The only truly Free people in the POTC universe, having shaken off all the horribly confining rules of society like, oh, loyalty for example.) and more like a 17th century version of "The Sopranos".

That's a good point. It's not really free if you have to report to an entire council, is it? Almost like an organized government ...

Besides, I realize the Chinese pirates were affiliated under one leader in that time period (later, actually, if it's early 18th century), but really only after they realized it would benefit them - and keep fewer from being killed - to compromise and ally with the government as sort of navy privateers. I might have my history wrong, but I don't believe this is something the European pirates ever attempted en masse.

I don't believe this is something the European pirates ever attempted en masse.

I don't think they did, either. Maybe the occasional alliance of a handful of ships to go hunting together, but in Real Life the Pirate King was sort of like the King of the Gypsies-- more myth than reality.

I don't recall if the Barbary Coast pirates were semi-official or not. Do you?

NOW you're getting into history I haven't read, or at least don't remember. I thought of it more as "I won't stab you in the back as long as you help me stab my enemy's," but I might be wrong. *G*

I'm going from very vague memories myself. I could very well be wrong.

What were your thoughts when you heard about a "Pirate Code" laid down by an "Order of the Brethren" in CotBP?

My understanding is that there isn't a strict "government" that the pirates follow; the Brethren was created for one purpose only, and since then has never met again. A major event united the first Brethren members, they came up with a code to preserve some of that unity for future use regarding that event, and have since gone thier own ways, with nothing but that Code and their pieces of eight as proof it was ever real. Many, many years pass, and now the old rules and old unity are needed again by AWE.

If I were more of an expert on pirate lore, I'd answer that. As it is, I'm more what you call a casual researcher/reader of individual historical characters. At any rate, what has appealed to me about pirates for more than 20 years is the reedom, having your own ship and being in charge of your own destiny, and the occasional story where a woman becomes a pirate. (But not Elizabeth Swann. What exactly is she seeking freedom from? Poverty? A forced marriage? A tyrannical father? You see my problem with someone in her position desiring "freedom.")

Wha... I think I'll be taking a cue from

yoiebear and taking further spoilers with a ton of salt. I'm not over worrying about Will as captain of the FD, so I think the spoilers may have broke me. At least there's only a month and a half until we see how it all plays out. And as you said, even if all our worst fears come true there'll be fic to make it better!

I don't know that any spoilers can be trusted, honestly. As I said, I simply want to expect the worst instead of giving them the benefit of the doubt. That bit me on the ass with DMC.

Hey, don't bash wikipedia, man.

Wikipedia is TEH EBIL. You can't tell what's true and what's not. The only thing it's really good for is giving links to sites that may actually have true information on them. :-P

Right on about Xena! What made her character so fascinating was that she had this dark side, which made her do bad things that she's trying to atone for, but also is an integral part of who she is and even helped her to do good (in that she couldn't kick Bad Guy ass so effectively without it). (In contrast to, say, Hercules, who was so good he was boring.) Maybe that's where they're trying to go with Elizabeth - she did something bad, and she'll have to make up for it in AWE, and come out a more human and interesting character. That's what I'm hoping, anyway. Probably they'll just screw up some more.

Plus - and this is going to get me flamed, but I don't care - she's not a stick figure with hair. She's a real woman with a real woman's weight and presence.

Amen. Why would that get you flamed? It's true. Xena was *hot*, but Keira Knightley just looks like she needs to eat more. It really depresses me that so many actresses are going for the waif look these days - it just makes them less attractive, not more. Even the ones who claim to repudiate that idea - Kate Winslet, say - are just barely on the side of not-starving. But it's easy to see why - she was way sexy in Titanic, but still got reviewers saying she was "too fat."

If you've never met a celebrity in person who is on TV a lot, you really can't think some of them could be smaller than they seem onscreen. I once saw Portia de Rossi when she was on "Ally McBeal" and not only was she tiny around, she was SHORT. I could've held her in the palm of my hand. I was amazed (but in her case, she was well-proportioned, so it didn't look bad at all).

Yeah, sorry, Keira. I don't care what you say, when I can see outlined ribs where your boobs ought to be, there's something wrong. Even the smallest-chested slender women I know IRL have enough fat to cover the bones.

Elizabeth the Pirate!King. Let the battle begin for who gets to be her 'Queen'! XD

I've been taking all these spoilers with heaps of salt since forever. Spoilers are subjective, and outside the context of the movie on the whole, can be misleading. Not to mention highly prone to wank.

I may even be starting to have some fun with all these spoilers. My first thought in reading this was she doesn't win on her own merit, but because her 'fiance' has a shiny new title and she is the one most likely to have some clout with Will Turner, CotFD. Lets face it, heading into a big battle, Will's damn handy to have on your side, especially if it's a battle for 'the sea' and he now is 'the Sea'. (See! Wank.)

And a side note, I love your 'anti-homo plot device' avatar. But what the hell does it have to do with 'gay rights'? Context people!!

But what the hell does it have to do with 'gay rights'?

I guess they're ascribing me more credit than I deserve. While I do believe in equal rights for gays, the idea of the avatar was to make fun of Disney. I've never said otherwise. *shrug*

Re having fun: I know you don't mind spoilers, so something I've heard may happen is that when Jack saves Will from the brink of death and makes him Captain, as soon as he recovers, it's HIM who marshals the power of the sea to beat the EITC. Now THAT would be too fucking cool to watch. (Just so long as he's not still Captain by the end of the movie.)

I like that spoiler! And not just because it's all about Will kicking ass, which I love, Asskicking!Will is one of my favorite 'Will' flavours.

But also, it actually makes my crackpot theory from above more legitimate. Because seriously, the idea that a sizable group of battle-hardened, experienced men of indeterminate age would elect a 20 year-old, pampered, self-serving female to 'rule' them, without having some type of ulterior motives, is so ludicrous that it makes my poor brain practically 'splode in self-defense.

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Is this for realz?

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Delurking...

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