veronica_rich | What a fan wants

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What a fan wants

This is going to smack slightly of reduxing

elibad's recent post in one of my communities titled What A Will Wants, but I hadn't looked at it in two weeks (or whenever it was posted) and actually had to go looking for it, for the URL, when I thought of this, just to make sure I wasn't completely copying her post.

This is not a spoiler, for I really know nothing about the outcome of AWE, and I think it's speculation that everyone by now has heard about Will - becoming captain of the Flying Dutchman. (So I'm not putting it behind a cut.) And I tend to believe a fellow fan who is neutral on the whole 'ship issue that this movie will go the way of traditional Disney fare, with the Hero and Heroine ending up together - in this case, Will and Elizabeth.

I want to get those out of the way. Let's just think about Will, alone, for this post. I was reading another community and for the 1,233,234th time it was brought up whether he would end the movie with Elizabeth. And that got me to thinking: How much do I really care if he makes up with her or not? I'm not belitting any fan who really wants this. I'm not even belitting any fan who really wants to see him on the Flying Dutchman ... though frankly, I think that's become more of a "default" position for those of us who like Will, who would rather see that instead of a dead Will Turner (obviously this doesn't include the fans who just don't like Will and want him out of the way - but, I presume nobody would reply to this who doesn't like him at least a little, anyway *G*).

What would you like to see for Will after AWE? It can be more than one thing - a blacksmith and a pirate? A merchant sailor and a father? Please try to think of something other than who he'll end up with. Aside from a relationship with a romantic partner - or instead of it - what can you see WILL doing (preferably happily, or at least with some satisfaction)? I'd like to see him in the American Colonies or somewhere similarly "new" in terms of law and order, a place where he can reinvent himself and make his own little fortune based on his abilities, not his former social strata - perhaps running a metal/farrier/swordsmith shop and employing an escaped black family as paid employees to help him out. (Don't ask me why that last part popped into my head - I've learned with creative writing to just go with whatever shows up. Plus, I like that Will would totally do something like that.) I suppose he could also play some part in local politics/lawmaking, since he's a smart guy and has learned some savvy from Jack that I'd hate to see wasted only on work.

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I guess I want to see him become more piratical and thus more of a bad boy in a way. But in the sense that the movies use the concept, as representative of freedom and individual destiny: to see him gain more of a sense of self and self-determination, rather than the selfless mission thing he keeps doing--the thankless Must Save Everyone gig. Like you say, they can take care of themselves. But who's taking care of Will? Not Will, certainly. And this is something pretty solid in his character, from the very beginning. We see it over and over again. He doesn't try to claim Elizabeth (in fact, even at the end of CotBP, she still is the one to claim him); he doesn't object or seem to mind that Mr. Brown takes credit for his artistry; he offers himself for Elizabeth, for Jack, for his father, for everyone but himself. It doesn't seem to occur to him that it might not have to be that way. And that selflessness is admirable, but it won't serve him well in the world of these movies--any better than it ever serves Jack, as it happens, which is why Jack is the man he is.

And Elizabeth does watch over him, to an extent--or she tries, or thinks she does; she stands up for him in CotBP and works to save his life in both movies. But she's much too piratical herself to make sure that he's not taking care of her in detriment to herself. I don't think it occurs to her that he is not like her. She takes what she can and gives nothing back, and assumes he'll take what he needs and wants, too. But Will gives all he has, and asks for nothing in return. It's a poor balance (not a balance at all, really) and it's the main reason why I have trouble seeing them happy together.

You've touched on something here that sort of needles at me about the Will/Elizabeth dynamic, which, though far from ideal, I think is the intended and appropriate ending. Even after all these months that they've apparently been spending time together, Elizabeth doesn't seem to understand very much about Will. She trusts him implicitly, but that's hardly more than a surface insight into his character, and, after all, he has always been socially inferior to her. But she doesn't seem to really know him, what's unique and wonderful about him, and that's an aspect to the relationship that's always needled me. I think it's basically due to poor writing more than anything, but the text we're given is the one we must interpret, so...

Excellent comments above, BTW.

-G. ;)

Agreed. What is it she SEES in Will? Is she so enamored with the long-held notion that he's a pirate - first fixed upon when he was a boy with the medallion - that she's missing other things about him that make him equally worthwhile?

There are good points here. Let me take a few, most of which I agree with:

He doesn't try to claim Elizabeth (in fact, even at the end of CotBP, she still is the one to claim him)

Here, I disagree. He's the one who tells Elizabeth that he loves her - in front of her father and her fiance, no less (and anyone in the crowd who cares to be listening). Then he's busy standing up for Jack - Elizabeth goes to him before he has a chance to say anything further to her. (You may be referring to the cave scene where Will misses the opportune moment, in which case I can only blame his youthful stupidity. *G*) I liked this balance - he misses an opportunity, but recognizes when the next one presents itself.

And as for "claim," isn't that a bit archaic and chauvinistic? "Me Og. You woman. MINE." Poor kid, he can't win for losing. ;-)

he doesn't object or seem to mind that Mr. Brown takes credit for his artistry

I don't think he *could* claim credit for it. He's still an apprentice, presumably indentured - if it got back to his master he was taking the credit (even if it was due him), he might suffer some sort of consequences. And Will doesn't have anywhere to go, unless he leaves Port Royal. Also, I think he does mind he's not getting the credit - look at his face when he goes to answer the Governor, the hesitation (presumably as he considers whether he ought to correct the notion, perhaps?). It's the same thing when Brown takes credit for capturing Jack.

which is why Jack is the man he is

I agree. It's also what makes Jack more compelling, that you don't know if his next move is going to be to save himself or to save someone else. Part of me wishes that in AWE Will would indicate to Elizabeth and Bill that they're on their own because he's too busy not being eaten by a big squid or sliced-n-diced by all the King's men. But ... then there's the part that likes that Will probably wouldn't do that. There needs to be more of a balance than we've seen so far, I guess.

I don't think it occurs to her that he is not like her

What I want to know is, what exactly is it about Will that she likes, anyway? Is it just that it's "forbidden" for her to have him? Is that what we're supposed to get from her possibly switching to Team Jack? Is it that Will was the most exciting thing in Port Royal, and now that she's seen a wider world, he's no longer that attractive to her? I don't know.

But Will gives all he has, and asks for nothing in return

Here, I have to speculate: Just because we haven't seen him do so doesn't mean he hasn't asked for anything. Then again, you may be right. He really does have so much potential to be a realistic cross between a good man and a selfish asshole - I just wish he'd hurry up and find it, already.

No, you're right; "claim" wasn't the right word. But when he said he loved her, I don't know that he even hoped that she would say it back. (Has she?) It was very much the knight pledging himself to an unattainable lady. Will has a certain amount of fatalism about him; he may mind that things aren't fair, but the moment when he shows up to save Jack in CotBP is such a big moment for him because it's the first moment he really fights against that. Whereas Elizabeth is all push, push, push, from the very beginning. If she doesn't get what she wants, it's not for lack of trying/asking/demanding. It's a factor of her being spoiled, and his fatalism is the fatalism of the lower class who never catch a break so don't go looking for one, but what it amounts to is a gaping power differential. At least the way I see them. I don't know that he would ever have asked for Elizabeth's hand if she hadn't grabbed him by it, so to speak.

And I do think that's part of what she likes about Will, subconsciously at least. He would spoil her, just as Daddy does. I haven't seen him rein her in yet (although maybe he will try in AWE.) He would give her that freedom she wants, as much as he was able--even if it was the freedom to wreak havoc in both their lives--because that's what she wants: not because he's weak, but because he loves her, and because his judgment when it comes to her is just not that good. And part of it, too, is what you said: he is forbidden, he is another way to push, outside of the realm of her proper life and "destiny." Which isn't to say I don't think she loves him and admires his courage and goodness and sweetness; but I don't think she loves him because she understands him, which would be the right reason. I think she loves him because he's hers, and always has been. And conversely, I think he may love her because she's never been his, and will probably never be, not completely. They fulfill one another's expectations about the world and the way it treats them.

(Sorry, I didn't mean for this to become Why Elizabeth and Will Don't Work, but that conviction is pretty strongly connected to how I see their characters. And while I love Elizabeth, I very much think that Will is too good for her--not the other way around.)

There needs to be more of a balance than we've seen so far, I guess.

I agree...although I don't think I'm going to like the balance they end up striking in DMC.

I very much think that Will is too good for her--not the other way around

Hmm. It isn't any fun being so good that it sets you out of reach of someone. And even as a woman, I can see how it would be totally confusing for Will to try to figure out - or, as you put it, understand - someone who essentially is:

"Don't tell me what to do."

"But rein me in when I need it!"

"Don't coddle me."

"But stand up for me when I need it!"

"Be a man and buck the system and make your own decisions!"

"But let me run things!"

Is it any wonder I'm single? I'm sort of like this and my God, I couldn't imagine ANY man being able to balance all of this reasonably. They'd piss me off at some point or other.

And maybe that's it, as you say. Elizabeth has always been unattainable, so Will never gave thought to how to "handle" her in the unlikely event he could ever win her attention. And it's that very uncertainty that may lose her. Will's gotta be the strongest character in POTC - HE has to be the one to make the leaps of intuition and action to keep what he wants, while still becoming his own person.

And that, my friend, is why I root for him and because I hate the writers. Because I really doubt whether they realize what's been created out of this throwaway chisel-faced stock "hero" they plopped into the middle of the Jack And Elizabeth Trilogy.

I'm exactly like that, and that's why I don't date men like Will. :-) The relevant measure is the Call Me On My Shit test. If they can't do that, it ain't gonna work. (I've never seen Will call Elizabeth on her shit, not once; on the other hand, Jack does it all the time, which is why I think they work better.) If I didn't have a conscience, though, I could be coddled as much as I wanted... On the other hand, men like Jack tend to be assholes in real life and that doesn't work out either. Hence, single. And maybe that's where Elizabeth should be, too, for awhile.

I do wish there was someone else in the movies who was actually good for Will. I think that's part of the reason I like the idea of Will/Tia so much. I think a woman like Tia would be able to make room for and see Will's strength in a relationship. She's not fighting blindly tooth and nail for power like Elizabeth is all the time, because she's got it and she's secure in her powerful femininity.

on the other hand, Jack does it all the time, which is why I think they work better

If I saw any actual chemistry between them, and if I didn't like Will so much (and thus didn't want to see him screwed over), I might be more amenable to a J/E theory. But it works in some parts of fandom because chemistry is different for everyone (how many fans don't see J/W or J/N? A lot). In that sense, I do believe she needs someone who'll occasionally not put up with her being such a monumental spoiled brat.

because she's got it and she's secure in her powerful femininity

I've said it before, but it's worth repeating because you nailed the very reason I don't usually like young female characters: They haven't figure out what they are yet. I have no patience for this fumbling, stumbling "I'm gonna make bad decisions because I can, and you can't stop me!" phase of life, because I remember how painful it was and I have NO desire to relive that at all. I'm no Tia Dalma, but I'm a lot closer to being like her than I am like Elizabeth - I don't even have patience with a lot of teenage girls. I want to slap them too badly, LOL. (So I guess this means Keira's doing a good job, eh?)

I don't think it's just wanting to make bad decisions because she can. I get Elizabeth because to my mind--and maybe it's just my fanon Elizabeth--she's struggling with some of the same things I do, only more so: trying to figure out what it means to be a woman and be a person who makes her own destiny at the same time. And Elizabeth's doing it from scratch (which I don't have to do) without having any good model for what that is--no mother, no female friends, nothing. It's no wonder she doesn't know what she wants...it hardly existed back then.

It's no wonder she doesn't know what she wants...it hardly existed back then.

But, Anamaria and Tia Dalma made it to maturity and became not only tolerable, but admirable and likable, female characters - and I doubt either of them *really* had any sort of guidance. I just happen to like a more "finished" model than a 20-year-old.

Who knows, maybe she'll get there.

And maybe I should have said, it hardly existed then for women of Elizabeth's class. But Ana and Tia never had any destiny besides the ones they made for themselves.

I've never seen Will call Elizabeth on her shit, not once

I'm going to offer my unsolicited perspective.

Just because Will isn't as showy about calling Elizabeth on her shit, doesn't mean he doesn't do it. And there are definitely instances of him doing so, more in CotBP, than DMC, but still.

The first is when we see them together as 'grown ups' for the first time. Elizabeth insists that Will call he by her first name and he gently declines, despite the fact that it is quickly apparent that he thinks of her as 'Elizabeth' and not 'Miss Swann'. It doesn't really matter why he won't do it, whether it's to protect her or himself, or out of respect for her father, or out of propriety, he refuses her request and it pisses her off. He does eventually call her Elizabeth but it's on his terms, not hers.

The second time. is when he finds out that she looted his 12-year old, unconscious self of all valuables. He's pissed that she took the medallion from him, and while he's quickly distracted about the overall ramifications of his medallion and what it means, she desperately, tearfully tries to explain herself, is disappointed that he doesn't listen/understand/immediately forgive her, and cuts and runs. There is still some tension when he shows back up on deck, he doesn't tell her that he understands and all is forgiven, because it's not. Eventually, it all gets swallowed up in the whole 'life-death-trapped in a sinking ship' thing.

In DMC they are not really together often enough for there to be any issues, except the whole, her mackin' on Jack thing, which Will is, again, not terribly happy about. When she gets into the longboat he does ask her about 'Jack', and is all jacked up for a confrontation. It is her response, and likely his own insecurities, that backs him off. He doesn't know what happened or why, but her reaction tells him there isn't a simple explanation, he automatically goes to the 'she wants Jack' place because of his own issues and the fact that the 'truth' would never occur to him.

The point of all this, (finally) I have never been in the camp that Will is Elizabeth's 'bitch'. That what she wants, she gets. That any and everything she does is okay, and Will just meekly accepts, nods and says 'yes dear' a lot. I've always gotten the impression that he's the type to go along with whatever, until it's something he feels strongly about, and when he does dig his heels in, the they stay firmly entrenched. My case in point here is the whole 'how they spent their time' between CotBP and DMC scenario. The impression I got, was that Elizabeth was not apposed to some pre-marital boot-knockin', and I suspect that Will was the driving force behind them keeping their giggly bits apart. Elizabeth either agreed, accepted or eventually gave up.

And this is the reason that I can actually see Will and Elizabeth working in a less fraught, day to day kind of situation (and I must include Jack and Will as well, because Jack and Elizabeth are a lot alike, and my inner slasher is is getting antsy). Because Will will compromise and drift and tolerate a whole hell of a lot up, right up to the point where he won't and I suspect Elizabeth (and Jack) can live with that.

And you know, I definitely see what you mean. Those are great examples. But they're also examples, to me, of the fact that Will doesn't quite "get" Elizabeth--or more precisely, of how he thinks he knows her well, as he has all his life, and of how he reacts when he finds out (repeatedly) that he actually doesn't. He doesn't understand why she wants him to call her Elizabeth, why she took the medallion, why she kissed Jack, why she wants to dispense with her honor prematurely; and when he asks why, he doesn't really want to know the answer. He doesn't, to put it simply, understand the piracy at the heart of her character; and so he can't challenge her at that level, can't say "look at you, you're crazy, you're way over the line and halfway to Singapore, you're no better than Jack," which is, of course, the truth: one that she's only just beginning to come to terms with herself--and needs to.

That's what I mean by calling her on her shit, and that's what Jack can do for her that Will can't...and wouldn't, even if he could see it, because in his mind it's a condemnation, while coming from Jack, it's just recognition. And to make myself clear, I don't think that's because Will's stupid or not listening or because he doesn't love her, but because they are essentially so very different. I don't think she understands him any better than he does her. And unless they can bridge that gap, unless they can actually have that conversation, I don't think they can have a really functional relationship.

And now I'm going to contradict with a simple observation: Why does it have to be if a man is capable of calling a woman on her shit, he ought to be the one sleeping with her?

I've had plenty of men in my life, older and my age, capable of getting me to see sense and making me see myself as being an ass at given points in time. Of my last four bosses, three of them were exactly like that (and I don't have normal "boss-employee" relationships with my superiors - if I can't give them shit and take it in return, I don't last long at the place; fortunately, I can get away with that in my line of work). Sometimes, a person just needs someone - whether it's a female or a male - who'll sigh and say "That'll do, pig." (To borrow from "Babe.")

Well, sure. I wasn't really arguing for Liz/Jack there, though, just against the Liz/Will. It really bugs me that they don't talk about things.

See below (I'm too lazy to copy and paste .......). Will and Jack aren't the same person, she's not treating them the same, so why should they respond the same way?

That's why it's not Elizabeth or Will whom I think is at fault, but their dynamic and the way that they respond to one another. I don't think they communicate well when they are in conflict--instead, they try to do what they do the rest of the time, which is guess what the other is thinking. But like you say below, people read dynamics differently.

I really think we're being asked to compare oranges and grapefruits, to compare Elizabeth's reactions to Will and to Jack, and vice versa.

Elizabeth is almost always helpful to or admiring of Will, or worried about him - if not actual *worry* then at least concern for his well-being. The only time we've seen her irritated was when he wouldn't call her Elizabeth, at the beginning of the first movie.

On the other hand, she starts off trying to be fair with Jack because he saves her and he's a romantic notion of "pirate." But then he yanks her back in a choke-hold, and she gets pissed off and carps at him, and their relationship consists from then on mainly of one trying to find a new insult toward the other. The idea that this is somehow more "real" than the respectful relationship she and Will have hammered out is all in the eye of the beholder, methinks.

If you want to see E/W, that's what you'll see - if you want to see E/J, that's what you'll see. But to say Will ought to respond like Jack, when he's clearly not being treated like Jack, is problematic. Likewise, nobody can argue that Jack stirs something different in Elizabeth than does Will - but to say it's love is all in how you define love and lust and a combination of the two, perhaps.

*Why* I hate the writers - not because.

Improper language usage, anyone?

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What a fan wants

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