who gets to decide what others can write?
Feb. 3rd, 2010 06:52 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
veronica_richIf you're a woman or girl in fandom and you're eloquent enough to write reams of meta criticizing other female fans for writing m/m or male characters, and not enough female characters, I really have a hard time taking your criticisms seriously. Because if you spent half as much time and energy writing and creating the female characters you claim you want to read about, as you do complaining your fellow fans are not serving you by writing what YOU feel you have the right to read, there wouldn't be a problem. You'd have gone a long way toward solving it.
I write m/m. I have written f/m. I have written gen, humor and otherwise. I have not written f/f because I have not encountered a f/f pairing I want to write. It doesn't float my boat. It may never float my boat. You don't like what I write, don't read it. I have plenty of f-listers who don't like slash; they don't read those stories of mine. We still manage to get along. You don't see me complaining that the good J/N or W/E or even the two good J/E writers who exist in my fandom aren't writing the J/W that I want to read. If I want J/W that fits my specifications, I'll write it myself.
And I have. Many times.
I write m/m. I'm neither gay nor male. I don't pretend to be; I don't pretend what I do is groundbreaking or a blow for gay rights, though I do support gay equality. But my support thereof is separate from my fanfic; my fanfic is NOT political, even if I were to drop a political theme or statement into one. I would never pretend it is. I do not believe I am appropriating a culture to fetishize it, because (1) I make an effort to write from my characters' brains, not their genitals, even if it's just porn; and, despite my effort to do a good job, (2) I cannot imagine that anyone would take my POTC slash fanfic seriously as literature. I do not publish in literary venues; it's LiveJournal fan communities, for godsake. My stories show up alongside 14-year-olds' discussions of "OMG JOHNNY DEPP IS SO HOTT!!111" I mean, really. I won't publish my original writing HERE.
But, what if I DO want to write m/m original fiction? Do I not have that right, especially if what I produce is a fair attempted portrayal of human beings? Tyler Perry isn't an older woman, despite playing one in several movies. Anne Rice was never a 300-year-old French male vampire; Naomi Novik never captained a ship as a man during the Napoleonic war; and neither Ted Elliot nor Terry Rossio were ever a 20-year-old woman in the 18th century Caribbean. (Remember how Elizabeth Swann was seen as a feminist ideal in fandom? That was two men writing her, with input from various other men producing and directing. Was there even an XX in the bunch other than Keira Knightley? I'm pretty sure she didn't singlehandedly create that character. My criticisms of T&T never included the assertion that they didn't have the right to write that character.)
My point - and to paraphrase Ellen, I do have one - is that fandom exists for people to share what they enjoy with other people who also enjoy the same things. This doesn't mean you should shut up and never criticize anything. But think about who you're criticizing. If you see egregious offenses in the movie or book (i.e., Cannibal Island characterizations of the natives in POTC-DMC set some people's nails on a blackboard) and you want to discuss them in an adult fashion with other fans, there's a place to do that. Or, write a letter to the studio/publisher/literary magazine pointing out the problem. Those writers were paid a great deal of money, and you have a right to question their intent. But if you just wish you could read more free fanfic of your favorite character ... write her yourself or encourage those writers who do, to do more. Complaining about the free fanfic from writers who don't want to write her isn't going to garner you stories that you want to read. Fanfic is a labor of love, a fantasy that will never come true - it's not coursework for college-level Creative Writing 241, even if some people do use it to practice their writing skills.
But, eh, as always - what do I know of such esoteric topics? I'm just a middle-aged fanfic writer with a four-year education from a medium-level Midwest university. I don't have any advanced degrees or academic papers under my belt, or published novels. I never experimented with other women or multiple partners, never inhaled, shot up, or snorted, and I wear plain cotton underpants. LOL ...
ETA (from one of my replies below): I would point out in the POTC fandom that I may well be the only writer (other than someone who once kindly wrote a story inspired by one of mine) who has made a fat woman the star/protagonist of any of any fanfic - Prissy, from CotBP. I just wanted to throw that out there. I'm a fat woman myself - do I have the right to scream that I'm being marginalized by all the women in this fandom who only want to write skinny, beautiful Elizabeth Swann??
I write m/m. I have written f/m. I have written gen, humor and otherwise. I have not written f/f because I have not encountered a f/f pairing I want to write. It doesn't float my boat. It may never float my boat. You don't like what I write, don't read it. I have plenty of f-listers who don't like slash; they don't read those stories of mine. We still manage to get along. You don't see me complaining that the good J/N or W/E or even the two good J/E writers who exist in my fandom aren't writing the J/W that I want to read. If I want J/W that fits my specifications, I'll write it myself.
And I have. Many times.
I write m/m. I'm neither gay nor male. I don't pretend to be; I don't pretend what I do is groundbreaking or a blow for gay rights, though I do support gay equality. But my support thereof is separate from my fanfic; my fanfic is NOT political, even if I were to drop a political theme or statement into one. I would never pretend it is. I do not believe I am appropriating a culture to fetishize it, because (1) I make an effort to write from my characters' brains, not their genitals, even if it's just porn; and, despite my effort to do a good job, (2) I cannot imagine that anyone would take my POTC slash fanfic seriously as literature. I do not publish in literary venues; it's LiveJournal fan communities, for godsake. My stories show up alongside 14-year-olds' discussions of "OMG JOHNNY DEPP IS SO HOTT!!111" I mean, really. I won't publish my original writing HERE.
But, what if I DO want to write m/m original fiction? Do I not have that right, especially if what I produce is a fair attempted portrayal of human beings? Tyler Perry isn't an older woman, despite playing one in several movies. Anne Rice was never a 300-year-old French male vampire; Naomi Novik never captained a ship as a man during the Napoleonic war; and neither Ted Elliot nor Terry Rossio were ever a 20-year-old woman in the 18th century Caribbean. (Remember how Elizabeth Swann was seen as a feminist ideal in fandom? That was two men writing her, with input from various other men producing and directing. Was there even an XX in the bunch other than Keira Knightley? I'm pretty sure she didn't singlehandedly create that character. My criticisms of T&T never included the assertion that they didn't have the right to write that character.)
My point - and to paraphrase Ellen, I do have one - is that fandom exists for people to share what they enjoy with other people who also enjoy the same things. This doesn't mean you should shut up and never criticize anything. But think about who you're criticizing. If you see egregious offenses in the movie or book (i.e., Cannibal Island characterizations of the natives in POTC-DMC set some people's nails on a blackboard) and you want to discuss them in an adult fashion with other fans, there's a place to do that. Or, write a letter to the studio/publisher/literary magazine pointing out the problem. Those writers were paid a great deal of money, and you have a right to question their intent. But if you just wish you could read more free fanfic of your favorite character ... write her yourself or encourage those writers who do, to do more. Complaining about the free fanfic from writers who don't want to write her isn't going to garner you stories that you want to read. Fanfic is a labor of love, a fantasy that will never come true - it's not coursework for college-level Creative Writing 241, even if some people do use it to practice their writing skills.
But, eh, as always - what do I know of such esoteric topics? I'm just a middle-aged fanfic writer with a four-year education from a medium-level Midwest university. I don't have any advanced degrees or academic papers under my belt, or published novels. I never experimented with other women or multiple partners, never inhaled, shot up, or snorted, and I wear plain cotton underpants. LOL ...
ETA (from one of my replies below): I would point out in the POTC fandom that I may well be the only writer (other than someone who once kindly wrote a story inspired by one of mine) who has made a fat woman the star/protagonist of any of any fanfic - Prissy, from CotBP. I just wanted to throw that out there. I'm a fat woman myself - do I have the right to scream that I'm being marginalized by all the women in this fandom who only want to write skinny, beautiful Elizabeth Swann??
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2010-02-04 04:41 pm (UTC)First, I don't believe female exclusion is the exclusive province of m/m slash writers. There are plenty of gen stories with straight men that exclude the female - and then there are those which nominally include one or more females, but water them down to such a point or keep them backgrounded that they might as well not be there. I myself have written m/m slash stories including female characters that I felt I represented them well with adventure and dialogue - with or without an accompanying relationship. (The best part about these is I was NOT consciously trying to "include the female" - I did it because I wanted to write that character. Politics makes for great arguments, but lousy fiction, IMO. Well, outside of a David Baldacci novel, anyway. *G*)
Second, you cannot make people write what they don't want to write, when they are doing it for free and their own enjoyment. You can't. You can certainly lodge a request, of course, but you do not have the right to any such thing out of another person. As I said above - if you want to see something happen, make it happen yourself. If you're not a writer or artist, seek out those who are amenable to those female characters you like and encourage their work. (The corollary to this is, if you see someone writing a female character - ANY character - and you feel it isn't being done well, you have the right to leave polite feedback to that effect, provided the writer has not specified in their notes that they don't want concrit. That's entirely a personal choice. But they do have the right to ignore you, no matter how much it makes you grit your teeth.)
Third - I don't think I ever advocated NOT having more females written in fandom, or erasing them. In fact, my point was: If you want to see them, write them. Create more of those stories. Never once have I said "gee, I wish there were fewer Elizabeth or J/E stories in the POTC fandom" - I have said "gee, I wish there were more J/W or Will stories that I like to read." One does not preclude the other. There is infinite space on the Internet to post all stories. ;-)
NOTE: I would also like to point out in the POTC fandom that I may well be the only writer (other than someone who once kindly wrote a story inspired by one of mine) who has made a fat woman the star/protagonist of any of any fanfic - Prissy, from CotBP. I just wanted to throw that out there. I'm a fat woman myself - do I have the right to scream that I'm being marginalized by all the women in this fandom who only want to write skinny, beautiful Elizabeth Swann??
no subject
Date: 2010-02-04 09:05 pm (UTC)"Scream[ing] that I'm being marginalized" is not what is happening here, and if it is, it is the minority. What I see is women making posts, not directed at any individual author, lamenting a lack of strong female characters in fanfiction and encouraging people to write more of them. Unless you have personally been attacked, I don't think you should feel persecuted because of this, and I don't think the appropriate response is to say the the people talking about it should just keep quiet and write their own fics.
no subject
Date: 2010-02-04 09:50 pm (UTC)Unless you have personally been attacked, I don't think you should feel persecuted because of this
It isn't a matter of me being persecuted (I'm not even sure that's the right word, considering the historical connotations it carries; it seems strong IMO). This is a matter of me seeing across the bigger Fandom, people who dabble in a fandom and who are doing their own thing for stress relief, and not forcing anyone to read their stories, being derided for not doing somebody else's work for them. I wouldn't expect anyone who doesn't like the characters I like to write them for me, especially in the way I want to see them written. I can certainly ask - but I can't expect it.
I don't think the appropriate response is to say the the people talking about it should just keep quiet and write their own fics.
I don't think I ever wrote "keep quiet" in here. I said: Complaining about the free fanfic from writers who don't want to write her isn't going to garner you stories that you want to read. "Keep quiet" is an order; this is simply advising people they can't expect to order a story to their specifications like a hamburger at Fuddruckers. Which I would think is obvious, unless it's part of a fic exchange where someone has agreed to write what you want to read. (For the record, I like participating in those. But not every fanfic writer does. And that's OK.)
"Scream[ing] that I'm being marginalized" is not what is happening here, and if it is, it is the minority.
But I didn't use those words to refer to anyone but me - I asked if it would be proper for ME to do that. I'm pretty sure the only verb I used throughout my post to refer to the fans I'm talking about was "complain," which is a perfectly decent verb without any connotations of gender or class.